Five weeks ago Leila Hussein told The Observer the chilling story of how her husband had killed their 17-year-old daughter over her friendship with a British soldier in Basra. Now Leila, who had been in hiding, has been murdered - gunned down in cold blood. Afif Sarhan in Basra and Caroline Davies report on the final act.
Leila Hussein lived her last few weeks in terror. Moving constantly from safe house to safe house, she dared to stay no longer than four days at each. It was the price she was forced to pay after denouncing and divorcing her husband - the man she witnessed suffocate, stamp on, then stab their young daughter Rand in a brutal 'honour' killing for which he has shown no remorse.
Though she feared reprisals for speaking out, she really believed that she would soon be safe. Arrangements were well under way to smuggle her to the Jordanian capital, Amman. In fact, she was on her way to meet the person who would help her escape when a car drew up alongside her and two other women who were walking her to a taxi. Five bullets were fired: three of them hit Leila, 41. She died in hospital after futile attempts to save her.
Her death, on 17 May, is the shocking denouement to a tragedy which had its origins in an innocent friendship between her student daughter, Rand Abdel-Qader, 17, and a blond, 22-year-old British soldier known only as Paul.
The two had met while Rand, an English student at Basra University, was working as a volunteer helping displaced families and he was distributing water. Although their friendship appears to have involved just brief, snatched conversations over four months, Rand had confided her romantic feelings for Paul to her best friend, Zeinab, 19.
She died, still a virgin, four months after she had last seen him when her father, Abdel-Qader Ali, 46, discovered that she had been seen talking 'to the enemy' in public. She had brought shame on his honour, was his defence, and he had to cleanse his family name. Despite openly admitting the murder, he has received no punishment.
It was two weeks after Rand's death on 16 March that a grief-stricken Leila, unable to bear living under the same roof as her husband, found the strength to leave him. She had been beaten and had had her arm broken. It was a courageous move. Few women in Iraq would contemplate such a step. Leila told The Observer in April: 'No man can accept being left by a woman in Iraq. But I would prefer to be killed than sleep in the same bed as a man who was able to do what he did to his own daughter.'
Her words were to prove prescient. Leila turned to the only place she could, a small organisation in Basra campaigning for the rights of women and against 'honour' killings. Almost immediately she began receiving threats - notes calling her a 'prostitute' and saying she deserved to die like her daughter.
Even her sons Hassan, 23, and Haydar, 21, whom she claimed aided their father in their sister's killing, disowned her. Meanwhile, her husband, a former government employee, escaped any charges, and even told The Observer that police had congratulated him on what he had done.
It is not known who killed Leila. All that is known is that she was staying at the house of 'Mariam', one of the women's rights campaigners, whose identity The Observer has agreed not to reveal. On the morning of 17 May, they were joined by another volunteer worker and set off to meet 'a contact' who was to help Leila travel to Amman, where she would be taken in by an Iraqi family.
'Leila was anxious, but she was also happy at having the chance to leave Iraq,' said Mariam. 'Since the death of her daughter, her own life was at serious risk. And this was a great opportunity for her to leave the country and to fight for Iraqi women's rights.
'She had not been able to sleep the night before. I stayed up talking to her about her plans after she arrived in Amman. I gave her some clothes to take with her and she was packing the only bag she had. She was too excited to sleep.'
Mariam said that when she awoke Leila had already prepared breakfast, cleaned her house and even baked a date cake as a thank-you for the help she had been given. After the arrival of 'Faisal', the volunteer (whose identity is also being protected), the three left the house at 10.30am and started walking to the end of the street to get a taxi. They had walked less than 50 metres when they heard a car drive up fast and then gunshots rang out. The attack, said by witnesses to have been carried out by three men, was over in minutes. Leila was hit by three bullets. Mariam was hit in her left arm and Faisal in her left leg. 'I didn't realise I had been shot for a few seconds, because as I heard the gunfire I saw Leila falling to the ground and saw blood pouring from her head,' said Mariam. 'I was so shocked, I didn't immediately feel the pain.'
Two men ran from their homes to help. They rushed Leila to hospital and a passing taxi took the other two. But Leila died at 3.20pm, despite several operations to save her. As she lay in her own hospital bed receiving treatment, Mariam said that she heard someone saying that Leila had been shot in the head. But there were other mutterings that were clearly audible. 'I could hear people talking on the corridors and the only thing that they had to say was that Leila was wrong for defending her daughter's mistakes and that her death was God's punishment.
'In that minute I just had complete hatred in my heart for those who had killed her.'
Police said the incident was a sectarian attack and that there was nothing to link Leila's death to her family. 'Her ex-husband was not in Basra when it happened. We found out he was visiting relatives in Nassiriya with his two sons,' said Hassan Alaa, a senior officer at the local police station in Basra. 'We believe the target was the women activists, rather than Mrs Hussein, and that she was unlucky to be in that place at that time.'
It is plausible. Campaigners for women's' rights are not acceptable to many sections of Iraqi society, especially in Basra where militias have partial control in some districts and impose strict laws on locals, including what clothing they should wear and what religious practice they should follow.
Since February 2006, two other activists from the same women's organisation have been killed in the city. One of them was reportedly raped before being shot. The other, the only man working for the non-governmental organisation (NGO), and a father of five who was responsible for the organisation's finances, was shot five months ago.
There could be many with a grudge against such organisations. However, Mariam believes Leila was targeted, pointing out she had been hit by three bullets. 'When we were shot, they focused on Leila, not us,' she said.
Since the attack the NGO has stopped its work in Basra. 'We daren't answer the phones because we have received so many threats since we gave our support to Leila's case,' said Mariam. 'Most of our members are preparing to leave the city and even Iraq if they can raise the money.'
A single mother since her husband was killed for refusing to join a militia, she too intends to move when she can. Faisal, who also survived her injuries, is still suffering post-surgical infection. She preferred not to speak, but her mother, who wished to remain anonymous, said: 'My daughter is very shocked at what happened, and my two grandsons can't stop crying since they saw her in hospital.'
Leila's burial was arranged within hours of her death by the husband of one of her cousins and Mariam's father.
The Observer visited Rand's father and two brothers at their Basra home, but they refused to talk beyond Hassan proclaiming his father's innocence. When asked if he would be visiting his mother's grave, he shrugged: 'Maybe in the future.'
Leila was an orphan, raised by an uncle who died in the Shia uprising against Saddam Hussein in the early 1990s. Hamida Alaa, 68, a friend of the uncle, said: 'The poor woman was killed and now her name and history is buried with her. No one wants to speak about it. She is just one more woman killed in our country who has already been forgotten by the local society.'
In the last days of her life, Leila was suffering from the pressure of having gone against her husband. 'She was sleeping with the help of sedatives,' said Mariam. 'She would wake up at night with terrible nightmares, even dreaming of being suffocated as her daughter was. She had been threatened so many times and that's why she was so scared. Her indignation over Rand's death is what led her to her own coffin. Their history ends here. But Leila was a hero. A woman who was strong enough to say no to Iraqi men's bad attitudes. Sadly most Iraqi women do not have the same strength and they will stay in their homes.'
Mariam has moved out of her home. But within hours of speaking to The Observer a close friend went to her new address to deliver a message that had been left for her at her front door. It read: 'Death to betrayers of Islam who don't deserve God's forgiveness. Speaking less you will live more.' She believes it was sent by Leila's killers.
'They want this story to be buried with Leila,' she said. 'But I cannot close my eyes to all this.'
freaking husband....
should go try and conceive for 9 months and giving birth.
what kind of a god will advocate honor killings..
the same god that says pleasuring a 9 year old girl is a-ok
I thought this was funny:
"I could hear people talking on the corridors and the only thing that they had to say was that Leila was wrong for defending her daughter's mistakes and that her death was God's punishment."
Obviously they did not trust their god to punish Leila, which is why they had to use guns.
human brain is incredible.. it's like poison if u use it wrongly and its like a gold if u use it wisely...
Still, where's God?
Islam does not the conceopt of honour killing
and its is myth that Muhammad married a 9 year old. just to clarify
Until someone proves that in the Arabic language "nine years old" means something other than "nine years old", then we should all be firm in our belief that she was "nine years old" (as if there's a reason or need to believe otherwise!?!)
doesn't matter abt 9yr old or not..
i dun believe islam or whatsoever religion advocates death and killing.. must be over generations got groups distort the readings and turn them to suit themselves..
erm dun tell me abt those satanic cults or what, those i dun care..
sick
sigh.. so sad. =(
OH MY !
GUESS WHO JUST FOUND THE SOLUTION FOR WINNING THE WAR ON TERROR !!
Screw all the guns and bombs and fighter plans. We dont need weapons !
The pentagon should just redirect all the US troops in Iraq to start getting comfy with the girls there. Save the billions of dollars spent on weapons and research.
The bloody extremists will start to kill off their own next generation. And then guess what, world peace ! hahahaa
And we can even filter out the extremists from the moderate people there, cos only the extremists will do these kinda crazy things. So in time, only the good guys will be left
that's... not going to work
i dun think it's islam teachings lah, the malay in sg all ok wat, btw i am chinese... it's only like in iraq the terrorist corrupt the teachings and declare things like holy war etc... if some chinese go kill ppl and declare he is doing for buddist, then you declare all monks as murderers, it's not right mah.
Originally posted by faroukalhadad:Islam does not the conceopt of honour killing
and its is myth that Muhammad married a 9 year old. just to clarify
Agreed, Muhammad was not a Pedophile but Muhammad married a 9 year old is not a myth.
A muslim who says Muhammad did not marry a 9 year old do not know his own faith very well. The hadith specifically says muhammad have sex with aishah when she is nine. By aishah own account in the hadith, muhammad had sex with her when she is nine.
ask any islamic scholar and they will agree that muhammad had sex with aishah when she is nine but this is one aspect of the islamic faith that they do not really wish to talk about.
Islamic laws considers any male who can produce sperm or female who have periods to be no longer a minor.
aishah already have her periods when muhammad had sex with her so muhammad is not a pedophile as he did not have sex with a minor (according to islamic laws) but do not dispute that muhannad had sex with a nine year old.
to those who still want to debate this issue, go read the hadith first.
Let me assist in your Hadith reading
1. Sahih al-Bukhari 810-870 A.D. 256 A.H.
2a.
(3311) ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married here when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and here dolls were with her: and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old." Sahih Muslim vol.2 book 8 ch.548 no.3310,3311 p.716.
Note carefully this is NOT saying Mohammed had intercourse with A’isha while her playmates were watching. Rather it says the playmates played with her, and they went out when Mohammed came by, and could come back after he left.
Abu Dawud said : That is to say : I menstruated, and I was brought in a house, and there were some women of the Ansari (Helpers) in it. They said : With good luck and blessing. The tradition of one of them has been included in the other. Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4915 p.1374
"..Ahmad and Is'haq said that if a female orphan reaches nine years old and was wed with her consent, then the marriage is permissible and she will have no choice when she matures. The two relied on a hadith by Ai'sha stating that the prophet peace be upon him had sexual relations with her when she was nine. Aisha said, if the little girl reaches nine then she is a woman" Tirmidhi said: A good hadith. (Tirmidhi, "Marriage according to Allah's apostle", #1027)
5a. A'ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married her when she was six and had intercourse with her when she was nine. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3255)
5b. A'ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married me when I was seven and had intercourse with me when I was nine. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3256)
5c. A'ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married me when I was nine and I accompanied him for nine years. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3257)
5d. A'ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married her when she was nine and died when she was eighteen. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3258)
5e. A'ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married me when I was six and had intercourse with me when I was nine and I was playing with dolls. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3256)
Note that the previous are in original Arabic, but were not in the English translation. However, the English translator at the front wrote the following under #18.
"When Hadrat 'A'isha passed nine years of married life, the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) fell in mortal sickness. On the 9th or the 12th of Rabi-ul-Awwal 11 A.H., he left this mortal world…Hadrat 'A'isha was eighteen years of age at the time when the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) passed away and she remained a widow for forty-eight years till she died at the age of sixty-seven." Sunan Nasa’i vol.1 #18 p.108-109 (English material at the front)
Note that she had nine years of married life with Mohammed, and since he died when she was eighteen, she was nine years old when she started her married life with Mohammed.
Conclusion on Sunan Nasa'i: Not counting English translation notes, the Arabic has 5 references and no counter-references to affirm that A’isha was nine.
6a.
A’isha was married when she was six years old, and nine when she went to Mohammed’s house. Ibn-i-Majah vol.3 book 9 ch.13 no.1876 p.1336b.
A’isha was married at seven, went to Mohammed’s house at nine, and was 18 when Mohammed died. According to al-Zawa’id, its isnad is sahih according to the condition of Bukhari. However Abu ‘Ubaida did not hear from his father, so it is munqata (has a gap) Ibn-i-Majah vol.3 book 9 ch.13 no.1877 p.134.7. The Historian ibn Ishaq - died 767/773 A.D. 145/151 A.H.
7a.
"Yahya b. Abbad b. Abdullah b. al-Zubayr from his father told me that he heard Aisha say: "The apostle died in my bosom during my turn: I had wronged none in regard to him. It was due to my ignorance and extreme youth that the apostle died in my arms.""8. The Historian al-Tabari - died 923 A.D.
8a.
‘Aisha was 6 (or 7) years old when she was married, and the marriage was consummated when she was nine years old. al-Tabari vol.9 p.129-131. Muhammad b. ‘Amr is one of the transmitters.8b.
‘Aisha was 6-7 when married, and the marriage was consummated when she was 9-10, three months after coming to Mecca al-Tabari vol.7 p.7. The chain of transmission includes an unnamed man from the Quraysh.8c.
Aisha died in June-July 678 A.D. (A.H. 58) at the age of 66. That would make her born in 610 A.D.. al-Tabari says she consummated her marriage with the prophet when she was nine years old. al-Tabari vol.39 p.171,173. (al-Tabari wrote 38 volumes of history, plus a 39th volume called Biographies of the Prophet’s Companions and Their Successors.)X 8c. On the other hand
, al-Tabari also wrote that i.e. "All four of his [Abu Bakr’s] children were born of his two wives -- the names of whom we have already mentioned -- during the pre-Islamic period." (Tarikhu'l-umam wa'l-mamlu'k, Al-Tabari, vol.4, p.50, Arabic, Dara'l-fikr, Beirut, 1979. al-Tabari vol.11 p.141 also mentions this, with footnote 766 saying al-Tabari has a conflict here. The footnote also says that al-Baladhuri’s Ansab I, p.409-411; Ibn Hajar’s Isabah IV, p.359-360 supports her being married by 9 years old.
6. Ibn-i-Majah 824-886/887 A.D. 273 A.H.
5. Sunan Nas’ai
830-915 A.D. 215-303 A.H.
3d.
(5916) [typo, really 4916] The tradition mentioned above has also been transmitted by Abu Usamah in a similar manner through a different chain of narrators. This version has: ‘With good fortune.’ She (Umm Ruman) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and redressed me. No one came to me suddenly except the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) in the forenoon. So they entrusted me to him. Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4916 p.1374
3e.
(4917) ‘A’ishah said: When we came to Medina, the women came to me when I was playing on the swing, and my hair were [sp] up to my ears. They brought me, prepared me, and decorated me. Then they brought me to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and he took up cohabitation with me, when I was nine. Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4917 p.13743f.
(4918) The tradition mentioned above has also been transmitted by Hisham b. ‘Urwah through a different chain of narrators. This version adds: I was swinging and I had my friends. They brought me to a house ; there were some women of the Ansar (Helpers). They said : With good luck and blessing. Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4918 p.13743g.
(4919) ‘A’ishah said : We came to Medina and stayed with Banu al-Harith b. al-Khazraj. She said : I swear by Allah, I was swinging between two date-palms. Then my mother came, and made me come down; and I had my hair up to the ears. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition." Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4915-4919 p.1374.Conclusion on Abu Dawud:
7 references and no counter-references affirm that A’isha was nine.4. Tirmidhi
825-892 A.D. 209-279 A.H.
3c.
"(4915) ‘A’ishah said : The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. According to Bishr’s version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.
2c.
"(5981) ’A’isha reported that she used to play with dolls in the presence of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), whereas Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent them to her.
2d.
(5982) This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Hisham with the same chain of transmitters with a slight variation of wording." Sahih Muslim vol.4 book 29 ch.1005 no.5981-5982 p.12993. Sunan Abu Dawud
817-888/9 A.D. 275 A.H.
3a.
"(2116) ‘A’ishah said : The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was seven years old. The narrator Sulaiman said : Or six years. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old." Sunan Abu Dawud vol.2 book 5 ch.700 no.2116 p.5693b.
"(4913) ‘A’ishah said : I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in." Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1769 no.4913 p.1373
"(3309) ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She too hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have shared in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him." Sahih Muslim vol.2 book 8 ch.548 no.3309 p.715-716
2b.
"(3310) ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old."1e.
"Narrated 'Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) I never remembered my parents believing in any religion other than the true religion (i.e. Islam), and (I don't remember) a single day passing without our being visited by Allah’s Apostle in the morning and in the evening." Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.44 no.245 p.158. Thus ‘Aisha was either not very old or not born yet when her parents became Muslims. This is consistent with her being a child when her marriage with Mohammed was consummated.
2. Sahih Muslim 817-875 A.D. 261 A.H.
1a.
"Narrated Hisham’s father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married ‘Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old." Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.43 no.236 p.153.
1b.
The same points are in Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.43 no.234 p.152.1c.
"Narrated ‘Urwa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six year old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). Bukhari vol.7 book 62 ch.60 no.88 p.651d.
Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet was screening me with his Rida' (garment covering the upper part of the body) while I was looking at the Ethiopians who were playing in the courtyard of the mosque. (I continued watching) till I was satisfied. So you may deduce from this event how a little girl (who has not reached the age of puberty) who is eager to enjoy amusement should be treated in this respect. Bukhari vol.7 book 62 ch.115 no.163 p.119Originally posted by ChiBet:
Agreed, Muhammad was not a Pedophile but Muhammad married a 9 year old is not a myth.
A muslim who says Muhammad did not marry a 9 year old do not know his own faith very well. The hadith specifically says muhammad have sex with aishah when she is nine. By aishah own account in the hadith, muhammad had sex with her when she is nine.
ask any islamic scholar and they will agree that muhammad had sex with aishah when she is nine but this is one aspect of the islamic faith that they do not really wish to talk about.
Islamic laws considers any male who can produce sperm or female who have periods to be no longer a minor.
aishah already have her periods when muhammad had sex with her so muhammad is not a pedophile as he did not have sex with a minor (according to islamic laws) but do not dispute that muhannad had sex with a nine year old.
to those who still want to debate this issue, go read the hadith first.
Wow. A very comprehensive reply. Thanks for that.
It's kinda off topic though. Nothing wrong with that except it seems to me a post of this calibre deserves a topic on it's own.
Originally posted by faroukalhadad:Islam does not the conceopt of honour killing
and its is myth that Muhammad married a 9 year old. just to clarify
I don't know enough about Islam to comment on whether it supports honor killing.
However, I can't help but wonder...
Someone draws a picture of the prophet and gets published, and most of the Islamic world starts rioting. Fatwas and death threats are issued. Boycotts are organised. There is a sense of outrage.
All this over a picture.
Now here, a woman and her daughter are killed in the name of Islam. Where is the outrage from the Islamic world? Where are the fatwas from Imams condemning this action?
Originally posted by ChiBet:
Agreed, Muhammad was not a Pedophile but Muhammad married a 9 year old is not a myth.
A muslim who says Muhammad did not marry a 9 year old do not know his own faith very well. The hadith specifically says muhammad have sex with aishah when she is nine. By aishah own account in the hadith, muhammad had sex with her when she is nine.
ask any islamic scholar and they will agree that muhammad had sex with aishah when she is nine but this is one aspect of the islamic faith that they do not really wish to talk about.
Islamic laws considers any male who can produce sperm or female who have periods to be no longer a minor.
aishah already have her periods when muhammad had sex with her so muhammad is not a pedophile as he did not have sex with a minor (according to islamic laws) but do not dispute that muhannad had sex with a nine year old.
to those who still want to debate this issue, go read the hadith first.
Its always tiring to see how easy some people assert they've reached & gain certainty of the deep recesses of islam compared to some praticing muslims themselves. They then proceed to throw words like hadith, "islamic law", without acquainting with the full extent of the meanings or the proper applications for it.
That there are hadiths saying Aishah is 9 yrs old when Muhammad married her is true. But hadiths are not regarded as sacrosanct. In the study of hadiths, hadiths has to pass the matn, textual analysis, among others, before the hadith can be accepted.
In this case, the presence of tons more historical narratives contradicts the reported age of Aishah at the time of her marriage. (Pointed out by faroukalhadad here, among others again)
So its presumptive and not polite at all how you prefer to rather accept hadiths at face value (which is erroneous even in muslim study) and then conveniently dismiss the actual investigative measures of muslims who finds it very questionable "as not knowing his own faith very well."
Originally posted by Phaze:I don't know enough about Islam to comment on whether it supports honor killing.
However, I can't help but wonder...
Someone draws a picture of the prophet and gets published, and most of the Islamic world starts rioting. Fatwas and death threats are issued. Boycotts are organised. There is a sense of outrage.
All this over a picture.
Now here, a woman and her daughter are killed in the name of Islam. Where is the outrage from the Islamic world? Where are the fatwas from Imams condemning this action?
These raging idiots with death calls are full of mistaken priorities...... and to the detriment of us all. Heeeellllpppppp.
Originally posted by Gauze:Its always tiring to see how easy some people assert they've reached & gain certainty of the deep recesses of islam compared to some praticing muslims themselves. They then proceed to throw words like hadith, "islamic law", without acquainting with the full extent of the meanings or the proper applications for it.
That there are hadiths saying Aishah is 9 yrs old when Muhammad married her is true. But hadiths are not regarded as sacrosanct. In the study of hadiths, hadiths has to pass the matn, textual analysis, among others, before the hadith can be accepted.
In this case, the presence of tons more historical narratives contradicts the reported age of Aishah at the time of her marriage. (Pointed out by faroukalhadad here, among others again)
So its presumptive and not polite at all how you prefer to rather accept hadiths at face value (which is erroneous even in muslim study) and then conveniently dismiss the actual investigative measures of muslims who finds it very questionable "as not knowing his own faith very well."
I am from Brunei where study of the Quran and Hadith is compulsory even if I am a non-muslim. If the hadith is erroneous, why get people to study it?
what point did Faroukalhadad provide? other than linking his argument to
http://www.justjihad.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18 ?
Lets study the information in the link
1. According to several authentic narratives, Aisha accompanied the Muslims in the Battles of Bad’r and Uhud. It is a well known fact in Islamic history that Muhammad disallowed anyone below the age of 15 to participate in his war entourage. Taking time references from these battles and her marriage, she could not be only 9 years old at the time of wedding.
A’isha, being a girl, never fought in any battles. The age of 15 "is the limit between childhood and manhood". So what would a girl be there for?
A 10/11-year old, besides keeping Mohammed company at night, had many things to do. The women and young children went on the battlefield after the battle and gave water to the wounded Muslims and finished off the enemy wounded. al-Tabari vol.12 p.127,146. During the days of the battle, the women and children were there to dig graves for the dead. al-Tabari vol.12 p.107
Finally, young A’isha was considered an adult, for Muslims called a girl an adult when she first started her period according to the English translator's note in Bukhari vol.3 book 48 ch.18 prior to no.832 p.513
2. The youngest daughter from Muhammad’s first marriage, Fatimah, was five years older than Aisha. This is as reported by Ibn Hajjar. Fatimah is reported to have been born when Muhammad was 35 years old. Therefore by simple mathematical calculations, it is impossible for Aisha to be only 9 when she got married to Muhammad.
Sunan Nasa’i vol.1 #29 p.115-116 (English material at the front) actually says that Fatima was 29 years old when she died (six months after Mohammed), which makes her ten years older than A’isha. So either Ibn Hajar, or else everybody else made a mistake. The authoritative hadiths would be trusted by most Sunni Muslims more than Ibn Hajar. Regardless though, A’isha was younger.
3. Aisha had an elder sister by the name of Asma who was 10 years older than her. Asma died at the ripe old age of 100 years old in the year 73 Hijrah. This means that she would be about 27 years old at the time of Hijrah – a good reference timing for Muhammad’s wedding to Aisha. This clearly illustrates that Aisha was already a teenager when she got married to Muhammad.
Assuming these books are reliable on this point, people can report the age of someone incorrectly after they died.
For example, if you trust ibn Hajar on the previous slide on when ‘Asma died, you should trust him ibn Hajar’s Isabah IV, p.359-360 when he shows A’isha was married by the time she was 9 years old. (footnote in al-Tabari vol.11 p.141 footnote 766)
What about the dolls? Contrary to Objection 6, a writer reported that many Muslim sources refer to A’isha still playing with her dolls when she was married. (Sahih Muslim vol.2 book 8 ch.548 no.3310,3311 p.716; Sahih Muslim vol.4 book 29 ch.1005 no.5981-5982 p.1299; Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1769 no.4913 p.1373, ibn Hanbal.
4. Prominent Muslim scholars argue that the particular Hadith, which claim that Aisha’s age at marriage was 9, have only been conveyed from one source- Hisham ibn `Urwah. No other credible sources from his time have related the same thing. For a Hadith to be largely credible, often more than one source has to be cited to ensure its authenticity.
Hisham ibn ‘Urwah is a transmitter in many quotes. If he was mistaken, then all the people who accurately quoted him would have wrong information too. Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, a book on the [life sketches of the] narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (v.4, p.301-302)
To the practicing muslims, let me pose you a question.
Do you know who is Imam Shafi’i? If you do, please understand you own Islamic teachings and Imam Shafi'i teachings.
According to Imam Shafi’i, marriage in childhood is not something appreciable. It was under some exceptional circumstances that Hadrat ‘A’isha was married to the Prophet (may peace be upon him). The second point to be noted is that Islam has laid down no age limit for puberty for it varies with countries and races due to climate, hereditary, physical and social conditions. Those who live in cold regions attain puberty at a much later age as compared with those living in hot regions where both male and female attain it at a quite early age. All of this was quoted from Sahih Muslim vol.2 footnote 1958 p.715.
To those who are do not understand the islamic faith that well, let me explain
Within the islamic faith, there are 2 school of thought, the Shi'ite and the Sunni
The Shi'ites are the elitist who believe that they are better than all the other muslims while the Sunnis believe that all muslims are equal.
90% of the muslims are Sunnis.
The Sunnis school of thought originated from Imam Shafi’i who himself acknowledge that Muhammad had sex with 9 year old Aishah under some exceptional circumstances and muhammad's actions are not wrong in view of islamic laws.
Originally posted by ChiBet:I am from Brunei where study of the Quran and Hadith is compulsory even if I am a non-muslim. If the hadith is erroneous, why get people to study it?
There continues to be a great internal discussion on that. Personally, I think the reason for collecting and following these hearsay of narrations is because of the desire to be a carbon copy of the 7th century people in Hijaz, Arabia.
Lets study the information in the link
Studying is one thing, copying and pasting from a website that declares on its front page to save muslims through the blood of Jesus (by Christian Debater™ no less), is without the touch and counter response of a muslim expert and Ill have to try getting in touch with them before I can get back here.
To the practicing muslims, let me pose you a question.
Do you know who is Imam Shafi’i? If you do, please understand you own Islamic teachings and Imam Shafi'i teachings.
We do not throw the baby out of the bathwater, saying Imam Shafi'i or whichever esteemed Imam is somehow wrong and should not be followed anymore. We also don't participate in takfir - declaring muslims non-muslims because they don't seem to be muslim enough, that is the weapon of the Kharijites and the extremists.
We only say Islam is more than a personality, more than the beaten track of some madhabs, more than a certain religious course of mind.
To those who are do not understand the islamic faith that well, let me explain
Within the islamic faith, there are 2 school of thought, the Shi'ite and the Sunni
The Shi'ites are the elitist who believe that they are better than all the other muslims while the Sunnis believe that all muslims are equal.
90% of the muslims are Sunnis.
The Sunnis school of thought originated from Imam Shafi’i who himself acknowledge that Muhammad had sex with 9 year old Aishah under some exceptional circumstances and muhammad's actions are not wrong in view of islamic laws.
That unfortunately is a disservice to the Shias and muslim history and thought in general.
very insightful, chibet, but am i right to say that nowhere in Islamic teachings mentioned anything abt the right to kill ur daughter if she is hanging out with another guy?