Return of the Popoff
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"False prophets and lies" would sum this up nicely. Good gracious, it's people like him who are giving Christianity a bad name, and the thing is, it's really hard to stop such people, given the usual number of gullible people who put their faith in a human and not God.
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It's just too easy isn't it, for religion to be hijacked by con-men, sexual predators, terrorist leaders?
I think the main drawback is that religious belief places a lot of value in faith. Faith is considered a virtue because no matter what crazy things you might believe, God loves faith. Blind, unquestioning faith will get you a permanent visa to Heaven. Besides the old man in the sky, there are many others who would love you because of your faith. These others include the snake-oil sellers, fortune tellers, tarot readers, mediums, bomohs, and not forgetting politicians. Faith has been abused too many times, only because it's easy to. Time for believers to wake up and realize that faith isn't a blessing, it's a curse.
Reason would make a better replacement. For one, it'll make you sound less dumb. People won't look at you different because you'll stop saying that God caused the tsunami to punish sinners. Second, you'll stop burning your time and money away on con-men, and put it to better use.
It's about time people of faith come together and say, "Fark off!" to people like Popoff. -
There are plenty of things that would give Christianity a bad name, this is just one of them. Homophobia, endorsement of slavery, sex scandals and the list will go on.Originally posted by SturmDerSchatten:"False prophets and lies" would sum this up nicely. Good gracious, it's people like him who are giving Christianity a bad name, and the thing is, it's really hard to stop such people, given the usual number of gullible people who put their faith in a human and not God.
The main problem is unquestioning faith in God because it also primes you to believe that God works in many ways. And one way is through the divine Popoff and his magic water, for only $19.90 (30 days money back guarantee). -
Eh, you seem to be saying that "faith" means that religious people advocate any form of disaster to be divine punishment, or that "faith" is just a way to manipulate people. In this case, "faith" would be a misnomer. I have faith that my mother loves me and will continue to do so. Is that dangerous, because I'll be caught unawares when my mom decides to run a knife through me? "Faith" is not as bad as you think.Originally posted by malayatheist:It's just too easy isn't it, for religion to be hijacked by con-men, sexual predators, terrorist leaders?
I think the main drawback is that religious belief places a lot of value in faith. Faith is considered a virtue because no matter what crazy things you might believe, God loves faith. Blind, unquestioning faith will get you a permanent visa to Heaven. Besides the old man in the sky, there are many others who would love you because of your faith. These others include the snake-oil sellers, fortune tellers, tarot readers, mediums, bomohs, and not forgetting politicians. Faith has been abused too many times, only because it's easy to. Time for believers to wake up and realize that faith isn't a blessing, it's a curse.
Reason would make a better replacement. For one, it'll make you sound less dumb. People won't look at you different because you'll stop saying that God caused the tsunami to punish sinners. Second, you'll stop burning your time and money away on con-men, and put it to better use.
It's about time people of faith come together and say, "Fark off!" to people like Popoff.
The more correct term would be "misplaced trust". I'll be honest here; I find that organized religion has been hijacked by higher agendas and that people are more liable to listen to people rather than God. That's one of the reasons why I don't go to church.
Now, the topic of "reason" is somewhat ironic. Let me ask you: Why does reason work? Why is reason good? Isn't reasoning as intangible as faith and ultimately impossible to prove? Wouldn't you need faith to believe that your reasoning is sound? Think about it. -
Your faith in your mom's love I'd assume, is based on her actions and words. For example, you remember her physically taking care of you when you were sick, etc. In this case, we won't need to call it faith, and can replace it with the word trust. But faith in God is based on what exactly?Originally posted by SturmDerSchatten:Eh, you seem to be saying that "faith" means that religious people advocate any form of disaster to be divine punishment, or that "faith" is just a way to manipulate people. In this case, "faith" would be a misnomer. I have faith that my mother loves me and will continue to do so. Is that dangerous, because I'll be caught unawares when my mom decides to run a knife through me? "Faith" is not as bad as you think.The more correct term would be "misplaced trust". I'll be honest here; I find that organized religion has been hijacked by higher agendas and that people are more liable to listen to people rather than God. That's one of the reasons why I don't go to church.
How does someone listen to God? Definitely not with our 5 senses, I guess. And let's say, one is able to perceive through some experience a feeling of God 'talking' to you. How sure can one be that God is speaking? There has been an experiment conducted where if a certain portion of the brain is excited, will induce a feeling of being in the presence of God, or oneness with the universe, etc. Results vary according to religiosity.
God on the Brain
I applaud your decision to not let your life be guided by so-called leaders. It says a lot about you that you take responsibility for making your own moral decisions, based on logic, facts and dare I say, reason.
Now, the topic of "reason" is somewhat ironic. Let me ask you: Why does reason work? Why is reason good? Isn't reasoning as intangible as faith and ultimately impossible to prove? Wouldn't you need faith to believe that your reasoning is sound? Think about it.
Hmm.. My faith in reason would be of course based on experience, but ultimately it is based on evidence. I have faith in my reasoning that God in most likelihood doesn't exist. Why? Mainly because there is not a shred of evidence in favor of God's existence. Reason can be proved by laying out the facts and evidence. And the good thing is that reason can be subjected to change should more convincing evidence appear. No need to stick to old ideas that are cumbersome and no longer accurate. -
Science works on theories which are reasons. Science, engineering uses knowledge and reasons to build things.Originally posted by SturmDerSchatten:Now, the topic of "reason" is somewhat ironic. Let me ask you: Why does reason work? Why is reason good? Isn't reasoning as intangible as faith and ultimately impossible to prove? Wouldn't you need faith to believe that your reasoning is sound? Think about it.
"isn't reasoning as intangible as faith and impossible to prove"
what exactly has faith contributed to real progress as compared to reason.
the proof of reason is the things that is able to produce.
law of gravity, law of electromagnetism
look at those cute invention of touch light where you can shake the torch light or press the button to convert the energy into light.
Man did not get into the moon by hoping only. It requires knowledge and reasons of why they think the shuttle can reach there and why they think the space suit will protect them.
Another thing is the sematics of the word faith. It is used in many context and sometimes used because of it is a popular word. strictly speaking, the 'faith' used in religious context to why they think their religion is correct, is not true.
people believe in religion and god because they have not thought deep enough about life and reality. many people dun think deep because they are too engross in the career life, family life and leisure life.
its does not seem appealing to think about whether there is god or not and why atheist say what they say. -
Faith has brought about hope in times of difficulty. It is easy to overlook the things faith can bring when one does not have a good experience of it. One possible reason why so many people dislike religion is due to the sensationalist stands the media and certain religious people take.Originally posted by january:Science works on theories which are reasons. Science, engineering uses knowledge and reasons to build things.
"isn't reasoning as intangible as faith and impossible to prove"
what exactly has faith contributed to real progress as compared to reason.
And I did not say reasoning was a bad thing. I was merely suggesting that there has to be faith in usage of reasoning, since reasoning itself, in all essence, is unable to be proved. To say one does not have faith in intangible constructs would be equivalent to saying one does not believe in anything at all.
the proof of reason is the things that is able to produce.
law of gravity, law of electromagnetism
look at those cute invention of touch light where you can shake the torch light or press the button to convert the energy into light.
Man did not get into the moon by hoping only. It requires knowledge and reasons of why they think the shuttle can reach there and why they think the space suit will protect them.
Here, you are generalizing. Not all religious people are shallow and pious. I think daily about philosophy and religion; in fact, I'm reading a book right now entitled "The Christian Faith and the Problem of Evil". It is interesting to see how humans try to make sense of all that is around them. There is no need to say religious people are uneducated, or that faith is wrong. We just see things differently after all. In fact, one of the only areas of study in this world, where there is only right and wrong is Mathematics.
Another thing is the sematics of the word faith. It is used in many context and sometimes used because of it is a popular word. strictly speaking, the 'faith' used in religious context to why they think their religion is correct, is not true.
people believe in religion and god because they have not thought deep enough about life and reality. many people dun think deep because they are too engross in the career life, family life and leisure life.
Perhaps. But you have to realize that there are plenty of self-proclaimed "atheists" who try to attack religion at the slightest whim, for dubious reasons. Religious people who react strongly do so, because they see what they have expected to see from what they term 'non-believers'. Is there no room for moderation even among the religion-less?
its does not seem appealing to think about whether there is god or not and why atheist say what they say. -
Hmm... because it's fun? I mean, for example, how can you take seriously someone who claims that in the past dinosaurs and man lived together ala The Flintstones? And who might also issue fatwas on men b.r.e.a.s.t-suckling female colleagues to ensure halal work relations. Man, these people are just asking for it.Originally posted by SturmDerSchatten:Perhaps. But you have to realize that there are plenty of self-proclaimed "atheists" who try to attack religion at the slightest whim, for dubious reasons.
I think this is as moderate as it can get. Extreme would be issuing an 'atheist fatwa' to kill all believers with a lousy sense of humour.Originally posted by SturmDerSchatten:Religious people who react strongly do so, because they see what they have expected to see from what they term 'non-believers'. Is there no room for moderation even among the religion-less?
PS: wth.. can't even spell out b.r.e.a.st.s without being auto-censored. sheesh. -
Well, generalizations and ad hominem attacks don't go far in ANY argument. I think we can all agree on this point here. Sure, you ("you" being a general term) go your way and I go mine, but don't expect me to not retaliate when you take potshots at me just for being religious. And the Flintstones part, got religion say that meh? Most of the holy texts in the world today don't make a mention of thatOriginally posted by malayatheist:Hmm... because it's fun? I mean, for example, how can you take seriously someone who claims that in the past dinosaurs and man lived together ala The Flintstones? And who might also issue fatwas on men b.r.e.a.s.t-suckling female colleagues to ensure halal work relations. Man, these people are just asking for it.
I think this is as moderate as it can get. Extreme would be issuing an 'atheist fatwa' to kill all believers with a lousy sense of humour.
PS: wth.. can't even spell out b.r.e.a.st.s without being auto-censored. sheesh. .
Maybe "moderation" isn't the right word to use. "Tact" would fit better. I think it's much harder to get the religious to do that first, because there are many who do not take the responsibility of faith upon themselves and to think deep into their faith. As such, they usually react very strongly when anyone, religious or not, challenges the dogma they ingest so often. Sorry, but methinks atheists are going to have to take the first step on this one.
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I think for the most part, most atheists don't care what religious people believe as long as it doesn't affect them. If you want to pay $50 for a bottle of water because you think it's homeopathic medicine, go ahead. If you want to pay a medium money because you think the person can talk to your dead father, sure. The problem is that religious people keep wanting to impose their beliefs and values on others.Originally posted by SturmDerSchatten:Well, generalizations and ad hominem attacks don't go far in ANY argument. I think we can all agree on this point here. Sure, you ("you" being a general term) go your way and I go mine, but don't expect me to not retaliate when you take potshots at me just for being religious. And the Flintstones part, got religion say that meh? Most of the holy texts in the world today don't make a mention of that .
Maybe "moderation" isn't the right word to use. "Tact" would fit better. I think it's much harder to get the religious to do that first, because there are many who do not take the responsibility of faith upon themselves and to think deep into their faith. As such, they usually react very strongly when anyone, religious or not, challenges the dogma they ingest so often. Sorry, but methinks atheists are going to have to take the first step on this one. -
Hmm.. I guess part of the fun is also watching believers retaliate. I know it's schadenfreude, but hey what else is there to do? I mean trying to engage in meaningful discussions with these people about their obviously wrong beliefs is more tiring than just ridiculing them. I mean you can throw all 1000GB of the world's knowledge at them and they'll still tell you, "Doesn't matter, I still believe every single bit of it". At least by making fun of (or attacking, if you like) them I still get to have a laugh, instead of say, ripping my hair out.Originally posted by SturmDerSchatten:Well, generalizations and ad hominem attacks don't go far in ANY argument. I think we can all agree on this point here. Sure, you ("you" being a general term) go your way and I go mine, but don't expect me to not retaliate when you take potshots at me just for being religious. And the Flintstones part, got religion say that meh? Most of the holy texts in the world today don't make a mention of that .
I wouldn't expect the holy book writers to know, let alone appreciate Fred and Wilma but creationists do mention about man and dinosaurs existing at the same time. Dinosaurs Q&A
Nah... I could try being tactful and tiptoe around their obviously broken arguments, but bending over backwards for everyone is bad for my back. I save that only for nice believers like youOriginally posted by SturmDerSchatten:Maybe "moderation" isn't the right word to use. "Tact" would fit better. I think it's much harder to get the religious to do that first, because there are many who do not take the responsibility of faith upon themselves and to think deep into their faith. As such, they usually react very strongly when anyone, religious or not, challenges the dogma they ingest so often. Sorry, but methinks atheists are going to have to take the first step on this one. Razz