Continued:Is there really jesus or what?
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From the EH forum, we brought the discussion over so that ISD doesn't have to do some investigations later.
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=262172&page=2 -
Ahh... I haven't checked that particular thread in a while.
I think there were a couple of interesting points raised and I do wish to, at some point, rebut what ObiterDicta wrote.
Briefly, ObiterDicta alleges that science does not, and is incapable of answering a number of questions. My reply to that would be neither does religion. Furthermore, as science advances, it may be capable of answering those questions in the future.
ObiterDicta also remains unconvinced that the 'lego mixing' analogy is a false one and I shall strive to give a more considered reply to convince him otherwise.
However, the thread may have started, I do think it would be interesting to examine if there really was a Jesus. The evidence for a historical Jesus is very weak and some would argue that Jesus never existed. However, I do believe there was a person called Jesus that inspired the myth. In those days, wandering prophets was not uncommon and the name Jesus was a relatively common one. However, I believe the miracles and many of the events described in the synoptic gospels are myth. -
I'm not sure why ISD would need to investigate.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:From the EH forum, we brought the discussion over so that ISD doesn't have to do some investigations later.
I don't think we've said anything that is defamatory. And certainly, it is not our intent to incite religious hatred. Speaking for myself (and who else could I speak for), my intent is simply to share what I feel is a more enlightened view of the world.
I would probably welcome an ISD investigation if it were to occur (though it might be time consuming). I would simply show that the views I express are carefully considered and not baseless. If ISD instructed me not to share these views anymore, I would regretfully cease, at least for a little while until I gain a better understanding of the limits to my freedom of expression.
I suspect it won't come to that though. A religion that has to silence its critics via any method other than rational discouse is a religion on shaky ground indeed. -
Let people believe what they want... if people think that they can beat the casino and instead lose all their money to the casino, that is their problem. Sure we try to tell them that there is no way to beat the casino and in the end they will lose all their money to the casino but if they do not listen, let them learn the hard way.
As long as nobody forces you to believe in Jesus, why do you care? *yawnz* -
And another reason why I no longer post in the Eternal Hope forum is because I respect Chin Eng's request that we " let's all back off and go back to our own forums" though I don't understand why he thinks it would turn into a flaming session.
I will address three questions though:
is there really an sudden interest to understand?
I've always had an interest in understanding. This is why I've read the bible many times, with and without reading guides. I've also attended many church services with many denominations. I've read countless books on Christian apologetics, including authors like CS Lewis, Lee Strobel, Michael Behe, Johnathon Wells, to name a few.
or perhaps the atheist forum itself do not provide enough a high readership?
I do admit that the atheist forum readership is quite low. However, that was not a reason for posting in Eternal Hope. I personally don't really care about readership or I would probably wouldn't have even started posting. My posts are pretty much for myself. As I mentioned before, I find that posting helps me to clarify my views and I find that debating helps me strengthen my arguments and develop them where they are deficient.
or maybe there is a need to challenge Christianity?
To some degree, it is a challenge to the Christian viewpoint. I suppose it depends on how you view the purpose of the forum. On one hand, you could view it as a forum that addresses all issues related to Christianity, including criticisms. On the other hand, one could argue that the purpose of the Forum is to share information on Christian living. If the moderators of Eternal Hope view it as a forum for believers, I will respect that view.
It has never been my intention to deconvert christians. Indeed, I don't really think it's possible. However, I do think it's necessary not to allow the claims of Christianity to go unchallenged. However, I accept that the Eternal Hope Forum may not be the best place to present the arguments, and I'm happy to hope that people will come to the atheist form if they wish to find out more. -
Come on, EH got some attention by ISD last year, we don't need that happening this year.Originally posted by Phaze:I'm not sure why ISD would need to investigate.
I don't think we've said anything that is defamatory. And certainly, it is not our intent to incite religious hatred. Speaking for myself (and who else could I speak for), my intent is simply to share what I feel is a more enlightened view of the world.
I would probably welcome an ISD investigation if it were to occur (though it might be time consuming). I would simply show that the views I express are carefully considered and not baseless. If ISD instructed me not to share these views anymore, I would regretfully cease, at least for a little while until I gain a better understanding of the limits to my freedom of expression.
I suspect it won't come to that though. A religion that has to silence its critics via any method other than rational discouse is a religion on shaky ground indeed. -
Because I care about others. I care that people make decisions for rational reasons. If a person does choose to be a christian (whatever denomination) I fully respect that. However, let him or her do so with all the information.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap: Let people believe what they want... if people think that they can beat the casino and instead lose all their money to the casino, that is their problem. Sure we try to tell them that there is no way to beat the casino and in the end they will lose all their money to the casino but if they do not listen, let them learn the hard way.
As long as nobody forces you to believe in Jesus, why do you care? *yawnz*
Ultimately, I care about the truth and I feel that religion misrepresents the truth.
And religion does lead to harm and we can't escape the influence of religion. Even if I am not a member of a religion, I may be bound by some religiously inspired laws. For example, why should there be a law against sodomy or oral sex if it's a private activity between consenting adults? Why should prostitution be frowned upon and deemed sinful? Isn't it better for a person to pay for sex rather than lie to a girl and tell her that he loves her just to get laid? Why should churches and other places of worship be tax exempt?
There are many other examples. We are fortunately that in Singapore, we live in a secular society so we largely do not face the problems of living in a theocracy. -
But if EH got some attention, it's because someone complained right?Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Come on, EH got some attention by ISD last year, we don't need that happening this year.
Where do you draw the line then? You might as well prohibit any discussion about religion at all.
And just because a person is unhappy with what you have to say, does the person have the right to silence you? -
They used something similar to Carnivore.Originally posted by Phaze:But if EH got some attention, it's because someone complained right?
Where do you draw the line then? You might as well prohibit any discussion about religion at all.
And just because a person is unhappy with what you have to say, does the person have the right to silence you? -
Oh wow. That's cool. Nonetheless, I don't think I've said anything offensive. If I have, I appreciate the opportunity to find out what the limits are.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:They used something similar to Carnivore. -
You can bring an ass to the water but you cannot make it drinkOriginally posted by Phaze:Because I care about others. I care that people make decisions for rational reasons. If a person does choose to be a christian (whatever denomination) I fully respect that. However, let him or her do so with all the information.
Ultimately, I care about the truth and I feel that religion misrepresents the truth.
And religion does lead to harm and we can't escape the influence of religion. Even if I am not a member of a religion, I may be bound by some religiously inspired laws. For example, why should there be a law against sodomy or oral sex if it's a private activity between consenting adults? Why should prostitution be frowned upon and deemed sinful? Isn't it better for a person to pay for sex rather than lie to a girl and tell her that he loves her just to get laid? Why should churches and other places of worship be tax exempt?
There are many other examples. We are fortunately that in Singapore, we live in a secular society so we largely do not face the problems of living in a theocracy. -
You speak the truth.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:You can bring an ass to the water but you cannot make it drink
Yet, it is enough for me to make sure the water is there.
I know are using the word ass in jest and it's a play on the old idiom that you can bring a horse to water. But I want to make clear that I do not consider those who seek water to be asses.
It's human nature, after we get past mere survival, to seek meaning in our lives. However, religion has little, or nothing, to contribute to that meaning. -
Please refer to this link for the intent of EH:Originally posted by Phaze:And another reason why I no longer post in the Eternal Hope forum is because I respect Chin Eng's request that we " let's all back off and go back to our own forums" though I don't understand why he thinks it would turn into a flaming session.
I will address three questions though:
is there really an sudden interest to understand?
I've always had an interest in understanding. This is why I've read the bible many times, with and without reading guides. I've also attended many church services with many denominations. I've read countless books on Christian apologetics, including authors like CS Lewis, Lee Strobel, Michael Behe, Johnathon Wells, to name a few.
or perhaps the atheist forum itself do not provide enough a high readership?
I do admit that the atheist forum readership is quite low. However, that was not a reason for posting in Eternal Hope. I personally don't really care about readership or I would probably wouldn't have even started posting. My posts are pretty much for myself. As I mentioned before, I find that posting helps me to clarify my views and I find that debating helps me strengthen my arguments and develop them where they are deficient.
or maybe there is a need to challenge Christianity?
To some degree, it is a challenge to the Christian viewpoint. I suppose it depends on how you view the purpose of the forum. On one hand, you could view it as a forum that addresses all issues related to Christianity, including criticisms. On the other hand, one could argue that the purpose of the Forum is to share information on Christian living. If the moderators of Eternal Hope view it as a forum for believers, I will respect that view.
It has never been my intention to deconvert christians. Indeed, I don't really think it's possible. However, I do think it's necessary not to allow the claims of Christianity to go unchallenged. However, I accept that the Eternal Hope Forum may not be the best place to present the arguments, and I'm happy to hope that people will come to the atheist form if they wish to find out more.
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=226660
When the chief moderator of the atheism forum makes a post as such:Originally posted by january:
he has already made a judgement on Christianity, as such, by continue along this line - that Christians are making a mistake in following the Bible - there is nothing else to discuss... because the topic of discussion is "WHY DO PEOPLE MAKE THE MISTAKE OF FOLLOWING A FICTIONAL BOOK" instead of "IS JESUS REAL?".....
just wanna say that i am an atheist.
Why do you christian believe what the bible say? Isn't a fiction book mixed with some non-fiction stuff.
I dun understand why christian cannot see the mistake in their reasoning? I think the reason is because their belief system was built and consolidated for along period and they also managed to programmed every counter argument with replies that further strengthen their beliefs.
But actually, i still dunno why they cannot see it.
So no point liao, because there is no discussion anymore. -
The water is there and has been there all along... people prefer to drink beer (get drunk) that's all.... I think it is ok to drink beer and get drunk (a few hours every Sunday, for example) but it is not wise to be drunk every moment of your life.Originally posted by Phaze:You speak the truth.
Yet, it is enough for me to make sure the water is there.
I know are using the word ass in jest and it's a play on the old idiom that you can bring a horse to water. But I want to make clear that I do not consider those who seek water to be asses.
It's human nature, after we get past mere survival, to seek meaning in our lives. However, religion has little, or nothing, to contribute to that meaning.
Sooner or later, you have to face reality and forgo your delusions... or else you "suffer" the consequences... but like the Matrix movie, some people prefer to take the Blue pill. -
I'm not a beer drinker myself - I'm allergic to alcohol. But I like your analogy.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:The water is there and has been there all along... people prefer to drink beer (get drunk) that's all.... I think it is ok to drink beer and get drunk (a few hours every Sunday, for example) but it is not wise to be drunk every moment of your life.
Sooner or later, you have to face reality and forgo your delusions... or else you "suffer" the consequences... but like the Matrix movie, some people prefer to take the Blue pill.
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But of course he thinks the bible is a fictional book - he's an atheist after all. Anyone who doesn't think the bible is largely a work of fiction would be a Christian.Originally posted by Chin Eng:he has already made a judgement on Christianity, as such, by continue along this line - that Christians are making a mistake in following the Bible - there is nothing else to discuss... because the topic of discussion is "WHY DO PEOPLE MAKE THE MISTAKE OF FOLLOWING A FICTIONAL BOOK" instead of "IS JESUS REAL?".....
So no point liao, because there is no discussion anymore.
I do think the question "why do people make the mistake of following a fictional book" is a legitimate one. Let's perhaps take this discussion away from Christianity and examine why people may choose to follow other words of fiction. In fact, let's take the discussion away from any of the established religions and examine the really weird. -
well, there are many ways to tackle such issues. the one you'd just proposed is, at least, reasonable.Originally posted by Phaze:But of course he thinks the bible is a fictional book - he's an atheist after all. Anyone who doesn't think the bible is largely a work of fiction would be a Christian.
I do think the question "why do people make the mistake of following a fictional book" is a legitimate one. Let's perhaps take this discussion away from Christianity and examine why people may choose to follow other words of fiction. In fact, let's take the discussion away from any of the established religions and examine the really weird.
nonetheless, I stand by my opinion that the moment, a prejudgement is entered, amicable discussion ends.
however, it does not mean that I am interested in entering this discussion. as i'd said previously, been on this road too many times to know how it will end.