If god exist,
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it certainly is not leaving any good evidence for us to detect and hence realize that god is really there.
He may have messages for us and if he really wants to pass some messages to us, he certainly is not passing the messages very well.
Also, he may not have any messages at all. He maybe just standing there and observing things.
Lastly, and which is the most most likely, there is no god at all. There is the concept of space and time, there is causality and law of causality.
And we humans certainly do not know many things yet. However, to jump from not knowing anything to therefore there is a god is a wrong reasoning. -
herein lies the thing... as humans, we live in a four-dimensional universe...
what makes you think that another being cannot exist in more than four dimensions?
and if that being exists, how many other dimensions are there?
as for God, think about this too... if we could understand God, would God then be God?
things to ponder about... -
The point is that what happens in other dimension is an unknown. Science knows that many things are unknown and it should just be left as unknown.Originally posted by the Bear:herein lies the thing... as humans, we live in a four-dimensional universe...
what makes you think that another being cannot exist in more than four dimensions?
and if that being exists, how many other dimensions are there?
as for God, think about this too... if we could understand God, would God then be God?
things to ponder about...
Saying it is GOD is jumping to conclusion. It is as good as saying nothing. There is no description of what is GOD other than saying it is GOD out there.
The problem with people and unscientific understanding is that
Unknown = GOD
Which is a wrong fallacious thinking. -
Look at how many definitions of GOD there is in the world and you know what i mean by saying that GOD is meaningless thing if people keep saying that
"there are so many dimension in the world that humans to not live in"
Undiscovered dimension means to science, that we just need to hold back any opinion of supernatural ideas and just do research and not make extraordinary claim.
I say that GOD is spiderman, who behaves like what he does in the movies, do you believe me? Well, there are other dimension, as you have said, so i could be right to say that the so called different types GOD of different religion is wrong and that GOD is actually spiderman and he inspires the comic creator of spiderman to produce the image of him in the form comic then later on to movies.
I could be right, since according to you, there are alterante dimensions that could really reveal the real life spiderman aka GOD. -
The sad thing is that even if God appears to you tonight in your bedroom and heals you of an ailment that you are suffering from, you will probably still think that you had a hallucination from work stress, that the lights in your bedroom played tricks on your eyes, that the doctor you saw for your ailment was highly competent etc etc etc.Originally posted by january:it certainly is not leaving any good evidence for us to detect and hence realize that god is really there.
He may have messages for us and if he really wants to pass some messages to us, he certainly is not passing the messages very well. ...
Just as some religious people attribute all things in life to God, whether or not it's true, an atheist set in his ways will attribute all things in his life to science and nature, even if it's the workings of God. -
Agreed. There are some atheists who are so strong in their lack of belief that even if He were to appear to them, they will deny His appearance.Originally posted by kenkaw:The sad thing is that even if God appears to you tonight in your bedroom and heals you of an ailment that you are suffering from, you will probably still think that you had a hallucination from work stress, that the lights in your bedroom played tricks on your eyes, that the doctor you saw for your ailment was highly competent etc etc etc.
Just as some religious people attribute all things in life to God, whether or not it's true, an atheist set in his ways will attribute all things in his life to science and nature, even if it's the workings of God. -
I had written a long reply to this but god must have intervened because when I tried to post, it brought me back to the login page. I tried to go back to recover what I wrote but I was unsuccessful. :pOriginally posted by SturmDerSchatten:Agreed. There are some atheists who are so strong in their lack of belief that even if He were to appear to them, they will deny His appearance.
Oh well, it's late. I'll attempt again tomorrow. -
"Much of our modern difficulty, in religion and other things, arises merely from this: that we confuse the word "indefinable" with the word "vague." If some one speaks of a spiritual fact as "indefinable" we promptly picture something misty, a cloud with indeterminate edges. But this is an error even in commonplace logic. The thing that cannot be defined is the first thing; the primary fact. It is our arms and legs, our pots and pans, that are indefinable. The indefinable is the indisputable. The man next door is indefinable, because he is too actual to be defined. And there are some to whom spiritual things have the same fierce and practical proximity; some to whom God is too actual to be defined. "
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This reminds me of a joke.Originally posted by SturmDerSchatten:Agreed. There are some atheists who are so strong in their lack of belief that even if He were to appear to them, they will deny His appearance.
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It is convenient to call it God wad.
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The logic is so absurd ... but I like the way you put itOriginally posted by Kuali Baba:This reminds me of a joke. 
In case this becomes a flame war, let me at least point out the absurdity. In order for God to appear, God needs to be in existence first. Prove the existence of God before you make any statements like that.
I can also say that Christians are so blinded that if Buddha suddenly appears before them they will think that he is Jesus and Buddhist are so blinded that if Jesus appeared before them they will think that he is Buddha.
Is this the joke you were reminded of?
I have no problems people believing in God but these people must understand that they are not logical doing that. I have no problem with people believing in Intelligent Design and not Evolution but these people must understand that it is not science.
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Not really, but it goes like this:Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Is this the joke you were reminded of?
There once lived a staunch atheist. One day though his town is ravaged by a flood, and the water rises so high that he has to climb onto the roof of his house.
However the floodwaters continue to rise, and in his desperation he mutters a prayer, "God, if you do exist, please save me!"
No sooner than he's finished a boat pulls up alongside him. The rescuers on the boat pleads with him to jump on board but he says, "Go away, I'm waiting for God to come and save me!"
The boat leaves, and soon the water is covering his feet. A rescue helicopter spots him and the rescuers lower a ladder to him. He also yells at them, "Go away, I'm waiting for God to come down and save me!"
The helicopter leaves, and the atheist gets swept away and drowns. He is taken up into heaven and he sees God for the first time. "Why didn't you save me when I asked you to?" he asks angrily.
The Lord replies, "I sent a boat and a helicopter to save you, what more did you want?" -
This joke is only funny if god actually does exist.Originally posted by Kuali Baba:Not really, but it goes like this:
There once lived a staunch atheist. One day though his town is ravaged by a flood, and the water rises so high that he has to climb onto the roof of his house.
However the floodwaters continue to rise, and in his desperation he mutters a prayer, "God, if you do exist, please save me!"
No sooner than he's finished a boat pulls up alongside him. The rescuers on the boat pleads with him to jump on board but he says, "Go away, I'm waiting for God to come and save me!"
The boat leaves, and soon the water is covering his feet. A rescue helicopter spots him and the rescuers lower a ladder to him. He also yells at them, "Go away, I'm waiting for God to come down and save me!"
The helicopter leaves, and the atheist gets swept away and drowns. He is taken up into heaven and he sees God for the first time. "Why didn't you save me when I asked you to?" he asks angrily.
The Lord replies, "I sent a boat and a helicopter to save you, what more did you want?"
Anyway, the argument here is basically a rehash of the argument that evidence of God is all around us, we just have to recognize it.
The flip side is that you may attribute causation to a deity when none is warranted. The rescuers would have shown up, or failed to show up whether the person prayed or not.
The religious rationalize this by putting their deity in a no-lose situation. If rescuers arrived, God sent the means of rescue. If rescuers did not arrive, it was part of god's plan. -
On December 3/4 of 2006, James Kim, a tech analyst on Cnet passed away during his attempt to look for help when his car ran out of gas in the wilderness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kim
There are hundreds of 'what ifs' where you could hypothesize how this tragedy could have been prevented. What if the gps maps were updated? What if James stayed with his family? What if he just continued down the road? What if the rescuers found him earlier?
When news that Kim and his family were missing spread across the internet, there were many calls for prayer. You can still find the impassioned prayers for the safety of Kim and his family on many forums all over the internet.
Again, the religious will have endless reasons on why James Kim died. Some argue that perhaps he did not have enough faith. Other argue that it was god's plan. All the reasons take away from the dignity of James Kim.
James Kim was simply a man who did what he thought was the best way to ensure the safety of his family. He did his best and he died in the attempt. -
It's not a sad thing to suspect it's a hallucination! It's the right thing!Originally posted by kenkaw:The sad thing is that even if God appears to you tonight in your bedroom and heals you of an ailment that you are suffering from, you will probably still think that you had a hallucination from work stress, that the lights in your bedroom played tricks on your eyes, that the doctor you saw for your ailment was highly competent etc etc etc.
Just as some religious people attribute all things in life to God, whether or not it's true, an atheist set in his ways will attribute all things in his life to science and nature, even if it's the workings of God.
We know that we cannot trust our senses. Our senses are fooled regularly. It has been shown many times, countless times, that every time we attribute something to the supernatural, we find a natural explanation once our knowledge grows.
It all boils down to evidence. We have evidence for natural causation. We don't have any evidence for 'workings of God'. The statement 'God makes the sun rise every morning' is completely meaningless as you cannot obtain evidence, or falsify this statement.
An atheist, or any rational person does not attribute anything to the workings of god because there is no REASON to. -
As I mentioned earlier, God appearing in front of me is very poor evidence.Originally posted by SturmDerSchatten:Agreed. There are some atheists who are so strong in their lack of belief that even if He were to appear to them, they will deny His appearance.
I know my senses can be fooled. I know that certain illnesses like cancer can spontaneously go into remission. Personal experience or personal 'revelation' is one of the worst possible reasons to believe something because we are so fallible.
That's why we have science. The scientific method helps us to overcome our limitations when it comes to observing the world around us. The scientific methods helps us to overcome our personal biases and come up with objective observations.
I am totally open to the idea of the existence of God. All I require is evidence. For an omnipotent god, any standard of evidence is laughably trivial. But let's make it clear, because extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence, it also makes the claims very easily falsifiable.
If god, or any other person wanted to prove to me that god exists, it's not too hard. All we need is a genuine miracle that cannot be explained with natural reasons. But "wait!" the religious cry out. "We keep giving you evidence but you reject it. Basically no evidence fits your requirements."
That's total nonsense. And one of the most irritating thing about religious people is that they keep using straw man arguments.
Some examples of genuine miracles that would convince me, and I believe most other rational people.
1. The documented healing of an amputee. If a person went to a doctor on monday without a leg, then went back on tuesday or wednesday with a leg, THAT would be quite convincing. Furthermore, when the doctors examine the new leg, there should be evidence consistent with a miraculous event. Professional magicians should be involved to make sure there is no trickery.
2. Evidence that prayer works. The religious keep coming up with silly studies and try to pass it off as evidence (which shows how dishonest they are). A double blind study, under proper experimental conditions is what is required.
3. Genuine supernatural revelation. We cannot accept vague statements that can be interpreted in 1001 ways. What is required is a specific statement of something that we cannot possibly know at this time. It also cannot be a prophecy that someone can make true. For example, the prophecy "There will be a blackout in Singapore on xxx date and it will last for 4 hours" doesn't work because someone can work to make it happen.
Imagine if the following statement was in the bible.
"I, the Lord thy God, reveal this to you. One day, machines will allow you to calculate the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter to levels of precision beyond what you can imagine. When you calculate up to the 17,387,594,880th digit of that ratio after the 3, you will find the following number sequence 0123456789. Thus will you know your God exists. I, the Lord thy God, hath spoken!"
Wow. Now THAT is evidence. -
We are talking about cause and effect, or causality. IN science and nature, we find out about cause and effect through observation and testing.Originally posted by kenkaw:The sad thing is that even if God appears to you tonight in your bedroom and heals you of an ailment that you are suffering from, you will probably still think that you had a hallucination from work stress, that the lights in your bedroom played tricks on your eyes, that the doctor you saw for your ailment was highly competent etc etc etc.
Just as some religious people attribute all things in life to God, whether or not it's true, an atheist set in his ways will attribute all things in his life to science and nature, even if it's the workings of God.
If you say something is caused by GOD but there is no definite way of carrying our any verification of the causality, then how do you expect science to know what is cause by god what is not cause by god?
People who recover from ailment claims that their prayer to GOD is answered.
People who died from ailment after praying says that GOD has plan for everything
People who recover from ailment who do not pray because immune system recovers
Claims of help from GOD is unscientifc. WHen prayers are unanswered, you will say that THere is a reason. THe logic that religion has is irrationale.
atheist set his ways of attribution to nature and science because they are well supported by evidence not those of simple observation but by those that are checled to make sure that it is just a issue of conincidence. -
THere is no significance probabilty that god exist, so he would not appear in front of us in the first place with supernatural power as stated in religious text.Originally posted by SturmDerSchatten:Agreed. There are some atheists who are so strong in their lack of belief that even if He were to appear to them, they will deny His appearance. -
YOu are crapping leh. That is not how atheist will behave.Originally posted by Kuali Baba:Not really, but it goes like this:
There once lived a staunch atheist. One day though his town is ravaged by a flood, and the water rises so high that he has to climb onto the roof of his house.
However the floodwaters continue to rise, and in his desperation he mutters a prayer, "God, if you do exist, please save me!"
No sooner than he's finished a boat pulls up alongside him. The rescuers on the boat pleads with him to jump on board but he says, "Go away, I'm waiting for God to come and save me!"
The boat leaves, and soon the water is covering his feet. A rescue helicopter spots him and the rescuers lower a ladder to him. He also yells at them, "Go away, I'm waiting for God to come down and save me!"
The helicopter leaves, and the atheist gets swept away and drowns. He is taken up into heaven and he sees God for the first time. "Why didn't you save me when I asked you to?" he asks angrily.
The Lord replies, "I sent a boat and a helicopter to save you, what more did you want?"
GOD is a poorly defined and arbitary word . i can also say that my illness is cured by spiderman, and i was saved from car accident because spiderman make the car driver stop in time. For whatever bad thing, spiderman does it for a reason. For whatever good thing, its shows that spiderman exist. Therefore spiderman exist. This is the kind of way god believer shows that god exist and it is what i say
irrationale thinking. -
he has explained it well. +1Originally posted by Phaze:It's not a sad thing to suspect it's a hallucination! It's the right thing!
We know that we cannot trust our senses. Our senses are fooled regularly. It has been shown many times, countless times, that every time we attribute something to the supernatural, we find a natural explanation once our knowledge grows.
It all boils down to evidence. We have evidence for natural causation. We don't have any evidence for 'workings of God'. The statement 'God makes the sun rise every morning' is completely meaningless as you cannot obtain evidence, or falsify this statement.
An atheist, or any rational person does not attribute anything to the workings of god because there is no REASON to. -
How atheist may believe in GOD is similar to how atheist will believe in spiderman.
First the spiderman has to provide evidence and strong one that he is indeed bitten by a spider that give him the powers. Secondly, the spider has to found and it was indeed found that being bitten by it can produce spiderman. Third, the spiderman has to be able to has those abilities.
YOu say God appear. But what is GOD? YOu have already say that GOD is beyond our understanding. In that case, how would believer know who is GOD and how to check if something is god if u do not understand him in the first place. -
You lack a sense of humour. My condolences.Originally posted by january:YOu are crapping leh. That is not how atheist will behave.
GOD is a poorly defined and arbitary word . i can also say that my illness is cured by spiderman, and i was saved from car accident because spiderman make the car driver stop in time. For whatever bad thing, spiderman does it for a reason. For whatever good thing, its shows that spiderman exist. Therefore spiderman exist. This is the kind of way god believer shows that god exist and it is what i say
irrationale thinking.
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