You can say that if you have not "thought through" the whole "reality is unreal bit". Let me ask you a question. How can you find meaning in life and living when you have reasoned that "Everything is truly an utterly unreal"?Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:That's an interesting notion, and in fact if I was a party in power would love to think that way... but there is just a catch.
If indeed there is no need to assert that our thoughts have any relation to reality at all, then there is indeed no need or reason to believe that any one way of thinking ought to be more reasonable or "living in reality" then the next.
Hence Atheism or Theism are both equally absurd, and neither can be trusted to give any picture of things at all. Everything is truly an utterly unreal.
In such a world or “it’s just a matter of how you relate to reality” , it would indeed be a world of see-as-you-want to those who have mastered the trick of accepting the absurdism of reality.
Through of course, in order to make such a claim that our reason be relevant to reality at all, we are indeed making an absolute observation on reality, as well as reason itself, and from where we derive such a principle does not seem to be birthed of any logic but simply a presupposition accepted without question- for indeed it is unquestionable- yet again on faith.
But supposing we are all truly deluded and stumble around reality with no way to relate to it. Then it would seem that we have abandoned all hope of assuming any moral stance over any oppressive or despotic powers that lay claim to our rights- for indeed, our rights are simply constructs with no relation to reality beyond what we wished for- and by what law shall what we wish for should not be taken away from us if we accept such a universe?
For such a universe only accepts the law of power, the ability to play out by delusion over yours.
Hence, oppressing somebody for my own (in my opinion) benefit is palatable as long as I convince myself that all these appeals to freedom, justice and virtue are simply human constructs with no relation to reality- and indeed, my own thoughts. If I have the power to override or suppress them then there is really no wrong in doing so.
As long as I convince myself of the unreality of others, and find my own meaning at any cost (even at that of others), and have the power to do so... then all is well.
I find it hard to eloquently argue against any despotic powers in Speakers Corner unless I have indeed, rejected such a worldview. In fact this would pretty much mean that whatever point of view we take on politics are actually all equal, and just a result of our upbringing or digestion to come to whichever faction we have chosen... but neither really justifies itself more then the other.
and maybe I should add: "as far as possible" because I understand that many people need crutches in their lives, for one reason or another and for example, when they cannot see any alternative to what you have asserted in your post that I have quoted.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:The trick is know how to find meaning in life in the face of utter reality and not cling on to "beliefs". That is manifestly a very difficult thing to do for most people and so I do not begrudge people having a religion but I urge people to live in reality.
You can say that if you have not "thought through" the whole "reality is unreal bit". Let me ask you a question. How can you find meaning in life and living when you have reasoned that "Everything is truly an utterly unreal"?Meaning does not matter. It is only in a state of confusion in a meaningless universe that we think that we need to find meaning in anything. It is an illusion, subject to the movements of electrons and atoms in our brain then it is anything else.
While you have eloquently reasoned that it "must" lead to a decline in morality or despair and "supremacy of the powerful", I submit that it does not. You inability to see any alternatives does not make your notion true.
Let me repeat my earlier statement:
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and maybe I should add: "as far as possible" because I understand that many people need crutches in their lives, for one reason or another and for example, when they cannot see any alternative to what you have asserted in your post that I have quoted.One does not need to find meaning in life and living, as Friedrich Nietzsche and Freud pointed out these are simply the results of slave complexes and neurosis. It is the superman, the elite, the one and alone that has the power and will to create his own meaning and reason and implement it in the universe, whatever that may be good or bad (indeed good or bad does not exist) for others.
I just posted something totally unrelated to this in another site but the relevance is uncanny (regarding cause and effect):Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:As the Merovingian said, choice is an illusion, created between those who have power and those who have not. The only true law is action and reaction, cause and effect.
To ignore the utter unreality of the universe is delusion but to ignore this "weird reality" is equally delusional.The question then is, what's so bad about delusion is delusion and badness themselves are delusions?
The key is how one should live life in a non dualistic existence where one balances the ultimate unreality with the weird reality.What exactly is "true happiness" and how exactly is is measured anyway?
This is where true happiness resides.
I answered your question when I pointed out to you that there is an Ultimate Reality and a "Temporary Reality"Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Erm, you still haven't really answered my question.
What laws then, should the despot and tyrant answer to? As far as nature is concerned, the strongest survive and the winners win. Freedom and democracy are just but players in this very game and not inalienable rights to any sentient being.
If indeed a system wins over freedom and justice, then what assumption can be made against it?
I don't think anyone claims that the world would be a perfect place even if the supernatural existed. After all, even if there were a supernatural creator, there is no reason to think that creator is perfect. In fact, in my opinion, no perfect being can be a creator. A perfect being would be perfect in itself and have no need to create.Originally posted by Kuali Baba:January, I will tell you why your attempt is flawed. It's based on the premise that if God exists, the world would be a perfect place. However, none of the religions preach that.
And conversely, if the supernatural truly exists, then a world without it would be very different from what we know too.Originally posted by Phaze:However, I think we can all agree that if the supernatural did exist, the world that we live in would be a much different place as compared to a natural world.
That is true. But if you use that argument, you are using a very different definition of the word 'supernatural'.Originally posted by Kuali Baba:And conversely, if the supernatural truly exists, then a world without it would be very different from what we know too.
So are still not making much sense, prehaps you could explain your point clearer:Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:To answer your question about despots and tyrants directly, they cannot do as they please or others will not let them do as they please simply because there is a "weird reality" in addition to the ultimate reality.
You assumptions are that, since everything is ultimately unreal, then despots can justifiable do as they please. You ignore "weird" reality.
Let me repeat, to ignore ultimate reality is to live in delusion and to ignore "weird" reality (you drop the apple it falls to the ground) is also a delusion.
If you want to live life in a state of delusion, nobody is stopping you.
To answer your question about democracy and free men directly, they cannot do as they please or tyrants and despots will not let them do as they please simply because there is a "weird reality" in addition to the ultimate reality.In fact I don't think you have advanced one step, all it seems to be is that whatever we consider to be a no-no aka. "despotism for the freedom lover", and "freedom for the tyrant" are but dislikes that men, according to their digestion and upbringing, have taken sides on.
god, like spiderman, is a fictional character.Originally posted by Kuali Baba:January, I will tell you why your attempt is flawed. It's based on the premise that if God exists, the world would be a perfect place. However, none of the religions preach that.
I'm not going to take the flamebait. I'm just letting you know that your argument is flawed from even an objective perspective.Originally posted by january:god, like spiderman, is a fictional character.