Any Malay atheists out there?
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Hi all!
I'm starting this topic to see if there're any Singaporean Malay atheists out there. Probably a minority of a minority but still, I'm sure there's an ex-Muslim out there who just can't find any more reason to believe. If you are one, just for curiosity's sake, I'd like to hear your story.
For me, I used to be the average Singaporean Muslim. Pious sometimes, yet still in tune with the secular part of society. But as i read up more on the sciences, it became impossible to hold on to scientific facts and Islamic beliefs at the same time. Something's gotta give and I just couldn't put my money on a religion that spawns violent extremist mutant-versions of the faith so easily. Or maybe moderate Islam is the mutant. Anyways, that's my very brief story.
So anyone out there, care to share their eroding faith in Islam? -
what are the penalties for the local Muslim to bail out of the religion?
in some countries, the punishment is death.
according to wiki:
"Today apostasy is punishable by death in the countries of Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan, Mauritania, the Comoros and, most likely, Iraq.[11][12] Similarly, blasphemy is punishable by death in Pakistan. In Qatar apostasy is a capital offense, but no executions have been reported for it.[13]"
the interesting part is these laws are laid and enforced by people in the name of the religion, yet the Quran itself does not specifically mention that these people should be punished by the faithful.
"the Quran itself is silent on the punishment for apostasy, though not the subject itself. The Quran speaks repeatedly of people going back to unbelief after believing, but does not confirm that they should be killed or punished."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy -
i sg chinese, but i'm the same
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u chinese muslim?Originally posted by gigabyte14:i sg chinese, but i'm the same
if u r, plz enlighten me on my question above? whats the penalty?
thanx -
i not chinese muslim laOriginally posted by sgquitter:u chinese muslim?
if u r, plz enlighten me on my question above? whats the penalty?
thanx -
HOW COME LIKE SO CONTRADICTING ONE?Originally posted by sgquitter:what are the penalties for the local Muslim to bail out of the religion?
in some countries, the punishment is death.
according to wiki:
"Today apostasy is punishable by death in the countries of Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan, Mauritania, the Comoros and, most likely, Iraq.[11][12] Similarly, blasphemy is punishable by death in Pakistan. In Qatar apostasy is a capital offense, but no executions have been reported for it.[13]"
the interesting part is these laws are laid and enforced by people in the name of the religion, yet the Quran itself does not specifically mention that these people should be punished by the faithful.
"the Quran itself is silent on the punishment for apostasy, though not the subject itself. The Quran speaks repeatedly of people going back to unbelief after believing, but does not confirm that they should be killed or punished."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy
ITS OK TO KILL? -
Like i pointed out, the Quran never specifically mentioned how to punish ex-muslims.Originally posted by herbs:HOW COME LIKE SO CONTRADICTING ONE?
ITS OK TO KILL?
However, the death penalties were laid out as state laws in those countries.
"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." -----Optimus Prime. IMO, that includes religion. 
however, to answer on whether it is "OK TO KILL?", apparently many religious "rules" and state laws suggest that killing the "guilty" is justified. Some even suggest sacrifices, animals and/or humans, in the name of religion. -
BUT IT SEEMS MORE LIKE AN EXCUSE LEH NO OFFENSEOriginally posted by sgquitter:Like i pointed out, the Quran never specifically mentioned how to punish ex-muslims.
"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." -----Optimus Prime. IMO, that includes religion.
however, to answer on whether it is "OK TO KILL?", apparently many religious "rules" and state laws suggest that killing the "guilty" is justified. Some even suggest sacrifices, animals and/or humans, in the name of religion. -
Any person who cannot reconcile science and religion and comes to the conclusion that there is no Creator is a poor soul indeed.
The failure to reconcile the two concepts is merely an indication that one is:
1) Insufficiently well read.
2) Intellectually dishonest.
3) Mentally lazy and has a subservient mind.
Being as you claim, a Malay, I would venture that you fall into either category 1 and/or 3. I don't blame you, you are only as good as your culture and upbringing.
Darwinian concepts of survival of the fittest to explain life on Earth today collapses when one considers the fact of the cataclysmic evolutionary course taken by the dinosaurs.
Ideas of life arising from random chemical interactions collapses when we consider that chemical assembly is governed by the Law of Physics.
In all the universe there is Order and in a billion billion years, purely random forces cannot assembly even a simple thing as a square block of stone.
Order arises from an Ordering Force, an Intellect with Power to shape matter.
Read more and be intellectually courageous. Atheism is the refuge of cowards. With all the information we have today from all the sciences, atheism is the refuge of stupid cowards. That is such a terrible thing to be. -
quoted for the record...Originally posted by frakfrakfrak:Any person who cannot reconcile science and religion and comes to the conclusion that there is no Creator is a poor soul indeed.
The failure to reconcile the two concepts is merely an indication that one is:
1) Insufficiently well read.
2) Intellectually dishonest.
3) Mentally lazy and has a subservient mind.
Being as you claim, a Malay, I would venture that you fall into either category 1 and/or 3. I don't blame you, you are only as good as your culture and upbringing.
Darwinian concepts of survival of the fittest to explain life on Earth today collapses when one considers the fact of the cataclysmic evolutionary course taken by the dinosaurs.
Ideas of life arising from random chemical interactions collapses when we consider that chemical assembly is governed by the Law of Physics.
In all the universe there is Order and in a billion billion years, purely random forces cannot assembly even a simple thing as a square block of stone.
Order arises from an Ordering Force, an Intellect with Power to shape matter.
Read more and be intellectually courageous. Atheism is the refuge of cowards. With all the information we have today from all the sciences, atheism is the refuge of stupid cowards. That is such a terrible thing to be. -
you christian ?Originally posted by frakfrakfrak:Any person who cannot reconcile science and religion and comes to the conclusion that there is no Creator is a poor soul indeed.
The failure to reconcile the two concepts is merely an indication that one is:
1) Insufficiently well read.
2) Intellectually dishonest.
3) Mentally lazy and has a subservient mind.
Being as you claim, a Malay, I would venture that you fall into either category 1 and/or 3. I don't blame you, you are only as good as your culture and upbringing.
Darwinian concepts of survival of the fittest to explain life on Earth today collapses when one considers the fact of the cataclysmic evolutionary course taken by the dinosaurs.
Ideas of life arising from random chemical interactions collapses when we consider that chemical assembly is governed by the Law of Physics.
In all the universe there is Order and in a billion billion years, purely random forces cannot assembly even a simple thing as a square block of stone.
Order arises from an Ordering Force, an Intellect with Power to shape matter.
Read more and be intellectually courageous. Atheism is the refuge of cowards. With all the information we have today from all the sciences, atheism is the refuge of stupid cowards. That is such a terrible thing to be. -
Does it matter? He could be Muslim or Jewish pr atheist, but that doesn't mean that religion (or lack thereof) will "taint" a person.Originally posted by crazy monkey:you christian ? -
Originally posted by sgquitter:
what are the penalties for the local Muslim to bail out of the religion?
in some countries, the punishment is death.
If you're talking about legal penalties, then I guess there isn't one in Singapore's case. Apostasy isn't that serious in Singapore compared to say some Arab countries.
And from my own personal experiences of sharing my atheism with Malay friends, their reactions aren't extreme either so I guess it isn't bad compared to a strictly Muslim country. But I do see some of them flinching because this topic is just very uncomfortable. -
Oooh touche... hmm where do i start?Originally posted by frakfrakfrak:Any person who cannot reconcile science and religion and comes to the conclusion that there is no Creator is a poor soul indeed.
The failure to reconcile the two concepts is merely an indication that one is:
1) Insufficiently well read.
2) Intellectually dishonest.
3) Mentally lazy and has a subservient mind.
Being as you claim, a Malay, I would venture that you fall into either category 1 and/or 3. I don't blame you, you are only as good as your culture and upbringing.
Darwinian concepts of survival of the fittest to explain life on Earth today collapses when one considers the fact of the cataclysmic evolutionary course taken by the dinosaurs.
Ideas of life arising from random chemical interactions collapses when we consider that chemical assembly is governed by the Law of Physics.
In all the universe there is Order and in a billion billion years, purely random forces cannot assembly even a simple thing as a square block of stone.
Order arises from an Ordering Force, an Intellect with Power to shape matter.
Read more and be intellectually courageous. Atheism is the refuge of cowards. With all the information we have today from all the sciences, atheism is the refuge of stupid cowards. That is such a terrible thing to be.
Ok let's start with the inability to reconcile science with religion. A recent survey done in the US (I can't really remember) on scientists, showed that 95% of them do not believe in God, or more specifically a personal God. You may say that they're poor souls (and how do you define soul anyway?) but to accuse great minds like Einstein, Dawkins, Darwin, Hawkings, etc. of being insufficiently well-read, intellectually dishonest, mentally lazy and cowardly is going too far.
And for your information, I'm half-Chinese too so how would you apply your logic to those claims now?
What catalysmic evolutionary course exactly did these dinosaurs take, that disproves Darwin's theory?
Which Laws of Physics collapses the idea of life arising from chemical interactions?
If we could agree on one thing, it would be that there is some form of order in nature, and that random natural processes would never in a billion years assemble a block of stone, or even a brain like yours.
I wouldn't be so rude as to assume that your understanding of evolution means that complex organisms come about randomly because that would be accusing you of being insufficiently well-read, mentally lazy and having a subservient mind. -
i quoted frakfrakfrak for the record juz in case he edits his post. if anybody feels insulted or upset by his post, i suppose the quoted text can be used to launch a police report.
i didnt try to rebut him becoz i didnt have the time then. anyway, malayatheist did a great job.
some points i'd like to add:
Extinction:
There are more than one great extinction event, so its not only dinosaurs, and they didnt "evolve" into extinction, great extinction events usually occur over a relatively short period of time - there is not enough time for evolution.
Life arised randomly?
Life did not arise randomly. Did u get born randomly? 
There are specific characteristics for everything in this world. An apple tree will not grow oranges, etc etc ... i hope u get the idea. These specific characteristics and behaviour are not random, thus life did not arise "randomly". what u need is juz the correct conditions and material to be present.
Religiosity and Intelligence
As for your remark about intelligence, will it surprise u if various studies find that there is an inverse correlation between religiosity and intelligence? In simpler words: the more intelligent one gets, the less likely that he is religious.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence
Courage
Does it take more courage to come to realise that there is NO LIFE AFTER DEATH, or does it take more courage to believe that 'some god' has ur back covered? -
Originally posted by malayatheist:
Glad that there are no legal penalties. The topic is indeed very sensitive esp when religion is deeply rooted in many people, and for some, the idea would never even cross their mind.
If you're talking about legal penalties, then I guess there isn't one in Singapore's case. Apostasy isn't that serious in Singapore compared to say some Arab countries.
And from my own personal experiences of sharing my atheism with Malay friends, their reactions aren't extreme either so I guess it isn't bad compared to a strictly Muslim country. But I do see some of them flinching because this topic is just very uncomfortable.[/b]
However, I'm also interested if you faced any problems within your community? weird looks, talking behind your back, not welcomed to gatherings or outings, gradual or sudden cut-off from others, etc etc? what about your parents? how did they respond? -
Someone once said ,"Nobody has seen GOD but everybody believe there is a GOD on the other hand Millions have seen UFOs but nobody believes in UFOs"
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wat? an atheist make a report that he was upset by a religious extremist's statement? How will that work?Originally posted by sgquitter:i quoted frakfrakfrak for the record juz in case he edits his post. if anybody feels insulted or upset by his post, i suppose the quoted text can be used to launch a police report. -
I take it that "crazy monkey" was trying to imply that even if what that extremist posted is true... does not make Christianity or any of the religions any more valid.... except maybeOriginally posted by crazy monkey:you christian ? [/quote][quote]Originally posted by SturmDerSchatten:Does it matter? He could be Muslim or Jewish pr atheist, but that doesn't mean that religion (or lack thereof) will "taint" a person.
Pantheism, and by default Hinduism becomes the religion of choice for that extremist poster if he is honest with himself.... -
yeah, we need to consider to blow stuff up so people take us seriously?....Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:wat? an atheist make a report that he was upset by a religious extremist's statement? How will that work?
nah... have a little faith in our legal system can? -
Ah.. it's rather uneventful actually cos I've only shared it with close friends and most of their reactions are muted. I can see that it makes them really uncomfortable when I bring up this topic, so after a while I just stopped. But my Malay friends usually have this, 'oh-fcuk-my-friend-is-an-infidel' kinda look initially but after a while it's back to normal.Originally posted by sgquitter:However, I'm also interested if you faced any problems within your community? weird looks, talking behind your back, not welcomed to gatherings or outings, gradual or sudden cut-off from others, etc etc? what about your parents? how did they respond?
I'm still not sure about disclosing it to my parents because I seriously have no idea how they will respond. My main concern is that they will over-react and send my younger siblings for religious classes which would just beat the purpose. Or maybe they would just be ok with it, I seriously do not know. I rather stay on the safe side and let it out on the internet. -
calm down and dun let this discussion go into quarreling mode.
try not to overreact to strong opinions from other camp.
fear, uncomfortable when talking about religion and belief system is common so its understandable why people usually dun talk openly about these topics. Its ego psychology that is involve and ego or self esteem is emotional sometimes. that is the nature of human.
generally i think the status quo for atheist or atheist inclination people are minority in singapore so we got to accept that and be patient in trying to explain our scientific and rational beliefs.
i think its better to stay within the internet domain in such discussion because we have to understand that society has its own conservate nature. -
frakfrakfrak, you are just describing agnosticsm, which to organized religion is just as bad as atheism.Originally posted by frakfrakfrak:Any person who cannot reconcile science and religion and comes to the conclusion that there is no Creator is a poor soul indeed.
The failure to reconcile the two concepts is merely an indication that one is:
1) Insufficiently well read.
2) Intellectually dishonest.
3) Mentally lazy and has a subservient mind.
Being as you claim, a Malay, I would venture that you fall into either category 1 and/or 3. I don't blame you, you are only as good as your culture and upbringing.
Darwinian concepts of survival of the fittest to explain life on Earth today collapses when one considers the fact of the cataclysmic evolutionary course taken by the dinosaurs.
Ideas of life arising from random chemical interactions collapses when we consider that chemical assembly is governed by the Law of Physics.
In all the universe there is Order and in a billion billion years, purely random forces cannot assembly even a simple thing as a square block of stone.
Order arises from an Ordering Force, an Intellect with Power to shape matter.
Read more and be intellectually courageous. Atheism is the refuge of cowards. With all the information we have today from all the sciences, atheism is the refuge of stupid cowards. That is such a terrible thing to be. -
Hahhahahhahahahhahahahaa.
I usually try to be polite but frakfrakfrak is the dumbest person I've ever seen online with the possible exception of Steven Lim.
The epitome of intellectual laziness is invoking a magic sky god as an explanation (which is no explanation at all) when you can't explain something.
This is the problem of the god of the gaps argument. The gaps keep getting smaller.
I went to a seminar sponsored by Ravi Zacharias Ministries which featured Jay Richardson and G. Gonzales. Even they admitted that all the evidence they presented indicated only the possibility of a deistic creator. There is absolutely no evidence for any kind of theistic god. -
Oh... here's an example of typical religious thinking.
http://bash.org/?779288