contributions of science/technology vs contribut by religion
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At the end of the day another person is just a collection of atoms and his emotion and intelligence is nothing but a complex interaction of chemicals and electrical charges in his brain.
These things were arranged from nature because the particular forces of probability happened to be the most fit (currently) to survive and hence these genes are passed on.
There is nothing inherently wrong about destroying this system if it fits your will and collection of atoms. Meaning in things like his emotions, memories and this thing called love are just chemical reactions and things illusions set up by nature to produce urges to enable the species to reproduce and survive.
There is no law of reason or how to behave, there never was. This talk of "improving" the human race through reason and logic is as meaningless as talking about finding a way to make grey rocks red or blue... in the end it all does not matter.
At the end of the day, it's the person with the strongest will and the means to implement it who has the right of way in our universe. Is there anything wrong with a black hole consuming a star? Is there anything wrong with a spider feeding on a fly?
This so-called instinct to do "good" for our species is just that: another instinct that we are no worse or better off listening to. Kill or feed the beggar on the street... it makes no difference. Everything is just atoms and our emotions and urges are simply chemical reactions and movements of atoms within us.
If we are to free ourselves from nature and become true supermen, we must overcome this need for "reason and logic", and look to the self to find the way to be the most powerful with what we have and where we are.
Survival of the fittest, winners win. That's the only law that will hold true at the end of the day. -
^ You've read Friedrich Nietzsche's works on his own version of nihilism and the Ãœbermensch, I see.
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Actually I didn't, but it does not take half a fool to reach this conclusion if he was a true atheist, as opposed to all these pseudo-atheists we have today who are more defined by the denial of God then by how they actually exist.Originally posted by SturmDerSchatten:^ You've read Friedrich Nietzsche's works on his own version of nihilism and the Ãœbermensch, I see.
They turn to "reason" and "logic" as their new gods, when by all and the most basic rules of the universe "reason" and "logic" are as false as the old gods they have cast off. Reason and logic is an illusion in a godless universe where the individual, and the individual alone must make his will and his way. That would be the true atheist, the person who has travelled the long road and reached the natural, and complete conclusion of atheism.
Such a person, and such a person alone is the real atheist, the liberated human, the superman, not the weak, betterment-of-humanity "athiests" we have today.
Isn't atheism such a brave way of thinking? Too bad so many people distort it nowadays to some poor parody of the real thing, and think they are "free"... as if having equally illusionary things like "logic" and "reason" had set them free from anything. They are still under the wills of stronger wills, still under the slave mentality to systems above them set up by other masters who have put them in place for some purpose beyond the individual. And they can't even see past this illusion and consider themselves free, when it is but another religion.
Fortunately, I don't subscribe to atheism. -
Them's fighting words.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Such a person, and such a person alone is the real atheist, the liberated human, the superman, not the weak, betterment-of-humanity "athiests" we have today.
Fortunately, I don't subscribe to atheism.
First of all, how is following reason and logic 'making it a new god'? Isn't even belief in a god based on reason and logic, twisted though it may be?
I don't think there is any inherent meaning in this universe. Yes, winners win. The strong survive. There is no 'good' and 'bad' other than what we make of it. We bring our definitions of 'good' and 'bad' into this universe. You seem to be saying that a true atheist would be incapable of thinking beyond himself.
But gee... I'm an atheist and I am able to think beyond myself. I know that once I die, there is no meaning to my life beyond what meaning other people make of it. And even though I won't be around to appreciate it, it doesn't matter. After all, I won't be around.
Even the superman won't live forever.
When I treat someone nicely, or give a gift, or help someone, I don't do it because I think some imaginary sky god is going to reward me in heaven. I don't think there's some karmic reward or punishment awaiting for me.
I laugh when the religious tell me that their religion teaches them to be good. It does not. It makes them incapable of doing good. "Give!" they tell you, and God will return unto you a hundredfold... a thousandfold! Help your neighbor and you will receive a mansion in heaven. Go blow yourself up and kill infidels and you will have 72 virgins in heaven. (I wonder if those virgins have the choice to serve the martyr.)
When you give expecting a reward, it's no longer giving. It's buying your imaginary future.
It is indeed fortunate you are not an atheist. I guess without religion to control you, who knows what havoc you would wreak. Unless of course your religion tells you to nuke the planet... then we'll be in trouble. -
You are still in the classic, faith-based way of thinking.Originally posted by Phaze:Them's fighting words.
First of all, how is following reason and logic 'making it a new god'? Isn't even belief in a god based on reason and logic, twisted though it may be?
I don't think there is any inherent meaning in this universe. Yes, winners win. The strong survive. There is no 'good' and 'bad' other than what we make of it. We bring our definitions of 'good' and 'bad' into this universe. You seem to be saying that a true atheist would be incapable of thinking beyond himself.
But gee... I'm an atheist and I am able to think beyond myself. I know that once I die, there is no meaning to my life beyond what meaning other people make of it. And even though I won't be around to appreciate it, it doesn't matter. After all, I won't be around.
Even the superman won't live forever.
When I treat someone nicely, or give a gift, or help someone, I don't do it because I think some imaginary sky god is going to reward me in heaven. I don't think there's some karmic reward or punishment awaiting for me.
I laugh when the religious tell me that their religion teaches them to be good. It does not. It makes them incapable
It is indeed fortunate you are not an atheist. I guess without religion to control you, who knows what havoc you would wreak. Unless of course your religion tells you to nuke the planet... then we'll be in trouble.
The true atheist will see no distinction between good and evil, fortune and misfortune, doing kind or being cruel, reward or punishment.
Life and death are also irrelevant, what matters is the will, and the will to transend these biological realities at the end of the day.
What I am saying is that the true atheist realizes all this talk about thinking past himself and doing kind or making any choice is just a product of his biological nature and adherence to slave systems he has not rid himself of.
If he was truly honest to his own atheism, he would realize that all this talk is mere illusion, and that it is the superman, and the superman himself that is the one who deems what he ought and should do.
Hence killing you and your family or torturing them for my own pleasure, in terms of true atheistic thinking, is neither wrong or right... it's simply a matter of if I have the will and power to do so, and determining my own value from it. If you lack the power to prevent or protest that then sorry chap, tough luck.
This is the only law, the only rule that matters at the end of the day in a truly godless universe. Only the superman is free when he drops all of these concepts of good and evil, life and death, and makes up whatever he deems fit to follow. -
After all, this legacy of wanting to improve the human race or "choosing" to do kind is but a relic of human religious history when by all natural laws, these things are quite illusionary. Following, or choosing not to follow them, is neither wrong nor right, just an issue of the power to do so.
Saving 1000 children or killing them, there is no real difference between them, just different directions of will and power to be determined by the superman. -
Amen.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:After all, this legacy of wanting to improve the human race or "choosing" to do kind is but a relic of human religious history when by all natural laws, these things are quite illusionary. Following, or choosing not to follow them, is neither wrong nor right, just an issue of the power to do so.
Saving 1000 children or killing them, there is no real difference between them, just different directions of will and power to be determined by the superman.
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Indeed, is it not funny, and somewhat pathetic that after going to such lengths to denounce traditional systems of faith we get “atheists” who denounce one set of shackles only to put on another. Here’s a good example.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Amen. But gee... I'm an atheist and I am able to think beyond myself. I know that once I die, there is no meaning to my life beyond what meaning other people make of it. And even though I won't be around to appreciate it, it doesn't matter. After all, I won't be around.
Notice the use of the word “appreciate”, as if it was any justification for “thinking beyond the self”. At the end of the day, this emotion and thought of “appreciation” is but a movement of chemicals in the brains of others that can take whatever meaning anybody should see fit, if they are brave enough to be the superman, to impose upon it.I don't think there is any inherent meaning in this universe. Yes, winners win. The strong survive. There is no 'good' and 'bad' other than what we make of it. We bring our definitions of 'good' and 'bad' into this universe. You seem to be saying that a true atheist would be incapable of thinking beyond himself.
How can you seem to grasp the truth of your “ideology” in one sentence and then lose it by the end of the paragraph.
I am not saying a true atheist is incapable of thinking beyond himself, that is an arbitrary value judgement that you have thrown up from who knows where, and itÂ’s certainly not from the naturalistic laws of atheism.
The true atheists is not incapable of thinking beyond himself, what he realizes is that, such a question in itself is quite irrelevant as long as he has the power and will to make this question matter to him or not. Being incapable of thinking beyond oneself is neither wrong, nor right.
As you said it yourself, there is no inherent meaning in this universe and winners win. There is no right or wrong, good or bad in this universe. Even nonsense or lies are not inherently worst positions over having logic or truth, all that matters is if the individual (or system/memes) have the clout and power to make their own way about the universe. It is not selfish, selfishness is an illusion.
Hence the REAL atheist will realize (if he truly understand and believes his own idealogy) that the question of religion or if God exists of not or if all this is any “good” to the universe is quite irrelevant. In the true atheist mindset religion or the belief in some Devine being is neither inferior or superior… it’s just a system that has gathered so much will and power through its very nature that it carries on to survive and prosper today.
The supposed “death” and “negative” points brought out by religion are arbitrary value judgements that differ from person to person and quite irrelevant as far as how much power the individuals who have their pet opinions have the power to affect their will.
The superman is beyond logic and reason and his own opinion. It is the pseudo-atheist who admits that the universe and all of humanity’s endeavours are simply constructs and illusions, vulgarities of perception created by a feeble human intellection trying desperately to justify an existence that is without meaning or purpose, all of it as artificial as the Matrix itself in one breath, and then retreats to his own pet philosophy of “logic and reason” as if it has any more insipid value then a peculiar arrangement and movement of atoms in his brain. He is no different from the first primitive man who invented his own god out of the blue and decided to structure his life about it.
What you bring and make of this world is quite irrelevant, what only matters is if you have the will and power to implement it. It is the superman, the true and brave atheist and not the modern secretly religious “atheist” that is a poor parody of the true meaning of atheism, that has the true power to do it.