Why don't you believe in God?
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its not really as 'harmless' as u perceive it to be.
How can we tell 'good' from 'bad' when our minds are biased, clouded and irrational? what are considered 'good'? in THEIR context?
for thousands of years, people kill in the name of their religion, many still thinking that they were righteous and some were hailed as heroes
even in everyday life, religion comes into play as it tries to be THE authority in everything - since religion 'has the answers' to everything, affecting the way of life for believers AND non-believers as well. Esp in countries where they have an official religion, the rights of non-believers are thrown out the window. Others are unfairly treated and subjected to harsh (and biased) religious laws. Many people do not even have the right to chose their religion! Yet all unfair practises are considered lawfully right!
Irrational thinking, which is an inherent part of religion, can become so deeply rooted, that it becomes a natural way of thought, affecting perceptions and judgements; and even to the extent of discrediting rationality!
How will mankind progress if they do not encourage rational thinking, but instead chose to believe in superstitions and irrational thinking? -
Let me give you an example of how difficult "rationality" can be.
This statement is fraught with problems. "harmless" and "harmful" are not absolutes. Once you take a position, you are in error. Nothing in this world is intrinsically harmful or harmless.Originally posted by sgquitter:its not really as 'harmless' as u perceive it to be.
Whether or not something is harmful or harmless is dependent on a host of other things. Furthermore, whether something is harmful or harmless is a judgment call.
Where do you draw the line? Who makes the decisions? What about those that indulge in harmful behavior knowing full well the possible "harms" but took a risk anyway, hoping to escape the possible "harms".
The average Joe in my observations, do not bother to think through issues. I doubt if "you" would even bother to think through what I have written on harm and harmlessness.
If you do not bother to think through "harm" and "harmless" and yet you make decisions everyday on the assumption that you "know" harm and harmless; and you call yourself a "rationalist"; what do you think will be the position of the majority of humans?
If you have not considered "harm" and "harmless" in your everyday dealings in a rational way, how are you not living life in an illusionary and delusional manner, a kettle calling the pot black? -
How do you know I am not asking your brain and not you?Originally posted by Darkness_hacker99:You ask my brain lor.. dont ask me..
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Last time free thinker means people who have no religion.Originally posted by Darkness_hacker99:Free thinker here.
Now no more.
If you say you are a free thinker, you are saying you don't think.
People say what, you ah ah.
People say anything oso, you ya ya.
That is a free thinker. Anything oso can one.
So don't call yourself a freethinker any more.
Say you are an atheist.
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I think when he says free thinker, it means that he *keeps his options open* and is not a *christian* or *buddhist* or *atheist*Originally posted by mancha:Last time free thinker means people who have no religion.
Now no more.
If you say you are a free thinker, you are saying you don't think.
People say what, you ah ah.
People say anything oso, you ya ya.
That is a free thinker. Anything oso can one.
So don't call yourself a freethinker any more.
Say you are an atheist.
He is free to think what he wants and will not be labeled and not even *atheist*
Need him to clarify. -
im still officially christian wad.
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wat dos that *mean*? *why*?Originally posted by Ito_^:im still officially christian wad. -
its means when ppl ask me wad religion, ill say im christian. especially for work.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:wat dos that *mean*? *why*? -
look at this.... some good people die horribly.....
bad people some of them live ripe old age....
so i dun see how GOD can be benevolent when these things happen...
what will u all say...
must have faith in GOD...
GOD must have reason why he does all these
good people go to heaven and bad people to hell
Satan is responsible for this problem
all this are just talk. there is no proof at all. Stories. you expect me to buy all these stories....
you can talk reasons upon reasons abt this Satan and GOD to explain but world has many stories already so i dun buy it.
to me, fact that reality is what it is, its has merciless... you can be smart, or kind, but if you are unlucky to be knocked by car and become vegetable, then you will be suffer as a vegetable. cruel but this is the nature of reality and the prove that there is no GOD watching over us. GO to heaven? well, people just talk about heaven all the time -
What if your boss thinks that religious people are hardworking and "law/rules abiding" but basically lack "creativity"? In order words, living in an illusionary world?Originally posted by Ito_^:its means when ppl ask me wad religion, ill say im christian. especially for work. -
Originally posted by january:
All this is besides the point, you see. It does not matter that the beliefs are illusions and delusions - they are "good" illusions and delusions.
look at this.... some good people die horribly.....
bad people some of them live ripe old age....
so i dun see how GOD can be benevolent when these things happen...
what will u all say...
must have faith in GOD...
GOD must have reason why he does all these
good people go to heaven and bad people to hell
Satan is responsible for this problem
all this are just talk. there is no proof at all. Stories. you expect me to buy all these stories....
you can talk reasons upon reasons abt this Satan and GOD to explain but world has many stories already so i dun buy it.
[b]to me, fact that reality is what it is, its has merciless... you can be smart, or kind, but if you are unlucky to be knocked by car and become vegetable, then you will be suffer as a vegetable. cruel but this is the nature of reality and the prove that there is no GOD watching over us. GO to heaven? well, people just talk about heaven all the time[/b]
It is like, positive thinking.
The reality might be just so-so and the chances might be fifty-fifty but positive thinkers motivate themselves by thinking that they have better than fifty-fifty chances.
I am not saying that there are no "downsides" to all these self created "illusions and delusions" but so what? Non-believers indulge in "positive thinking" as well... -
Do religious people believe in God?Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:All this is besides the point, you see. It does not matter that the beliefs are illusions and delusions - they are "good" illusions and delusions.
It is like, positive thinking.
The reality might be just so-so and the chances might be fifty-fifty but positive thinkers motivate themselves by thinking that they have better than fifty-fifty chances.
I am not saying that there are no "downsides" to all these self created "illusions and delusions" but so what? Non-believers indulge in "positive thinking" as well...
It is a given that they believe that God exist.
But do they believe that God will see them through.
Do they trust God?
Do they harbour the notion that it is a fallacy to trust God completely?
God helps those who help themselves.
This tells them that they also must take some responsibility for themselves and not rely entirely on God.
God do not work miracles.
In fact God do not help any one.
We attribute both the above to God by our own inventions
Therefore the stotic attitude that God will help is actually a delusion.
Positive thinkers and God-believers go forth and act based on their belief. They therefore are most likely to reap opportunities for their success. This is in contrast to the atheist or pessimist, who are most likely to miss opportunities.
There is actually little difference between the non-believers and believers.
So if one is castaway on a sand bank, in the ocean, and the tide is comming in.
Is the chance of rescue dependent on belief?
Would God care whether you believe in Him or not?
I think not.
God's philosophy is simple, "Live the good life." -
Positive thinking and the belief that God will deliver can be very foolish if not dangerous. It is better to understand probability theory and weigh the consequences rather than to act with passion and hope where disinterestedness and hopelessness is called for.Originally posted by mancha:Do religious people believe in God?
It is a given that they believe that God exist.
But do they believe that God will see them through.
Do they trust God?
Do they harbour the notion that it is a fallacy to trust God completely?
God helps those who help themselves.
This tells them that they also must take some responsibility for themselves and not rely entirely on God.
God do not work miracles.
In fact God do not help any one.
We attribute both the above to God by our own inventions
Therefore the stotic attitude that God will help is actually a delusion.
Positive thinkers and God-believers go forth and act based on their belief. They therefore are most likely to reap opportunities for their success. This is in contrast to the atheist or pessimist, who are most likely to miss opportunities.
There is actually little difference between the non-believers and believers.
So if one is castaway on a sand bank, in the ocean, and the tide is comming in.
Is the chance of rescue dependent on belief?
Would God care whether you believe in Him or not?
I think not.
God's philosophy is simple, "Live the good life."
Where hope can change the outcome, "hope" "belief" and "positive thinking" is good. Some people can find the positive thoughts within themselves but some people need an external focus, like the God belief, to help them. -
My point about how "logical thinking" is not for everyone can be seen from here:Originally posted by january:i am apalled by what you say. if you try to explain think in terms of god and satan, then you are straying away from self accountability.
a child fares badly for his exam, he should look at how he can improve and be more studious for the next test. he does not think: "god must have a reason for making me fare badly in test" or "satan make me get poor result"
its always easy for people to give reasons. If you are satisifed when you have many reasons but none of it is right, the truth will eventually catch up with you.
In working world, people make decisions, and there are explanation and reasons. wrong reason will lead to bad decision.
i would like to emphasie that there is no God, Satan or heaven in reality. i would do my part to educate god-believers.
true that christians are smarter than buddhist?
and here...
CHRISTIANS ARE ALL SAINTS!!!!
Do you really have the heart to yank these people from their comfort zones into stark reality? Can they handle it? Isn't it better for children to believe in something that will do them good then to force them to think when they do not have the capability? -
Now before I write this I'd just like to say that although I'm Christian, I believe in the need for logic and reasoning; not all Christians are irrational and pious. To say that would be equivalent to saying all Muslims are terrorists, which they definitely aren't.
look at this.... some good people die horribly.....
It's not up to us to decide whether God wants to take our lives or not. If the Bible is any indicator of this, all things come in His time, not ours. It's not up to us to fathom why such things happen.
bad people some of them live ripe old age....
so i dun see how GOD can be benevolent when these things happen...
Besides, what you define as benevolence is the human aspect of benevolence, where like you said, good people ought to live longer and the bad guys ought to be stillborn. God is on a higher level than humans, and naturally, such titles can't be applied to Him. Attempts to humanize Him will most likely result in us becoming confused and consequently angry that He doesn't behave like we want Him to.
Exactly. God has reasons, but it's not up to us to know what these reasons are. He's on a much higher level than us. An analogy would be us and bacteria. If they had the same level of sentience as us, and us a proportinally adjusted level of sentience, we would seem like gods to them, no? Since we perform so many experiments on them; we kill them, we test them on other creatures, we rip them apart to determine their internal workings, wouldn't they be screaming "Why are the gods doing this to us?!" They wouldn't be able to know, right? It's the same with people and God.
what will u all say...
must have faith in GOD...
GOD must have reason why he does all these
good people go to heaven and bad people to hell
Satan is responsible for this problem
Proof is next to useless in religion as a great amount of faith is required. Indeed, most people can't understand how others can believe in something that hasn't been proven.
all this are just talk. there is no proof at all. Stories. you expect me to buy all these stories....
you can talk reasons upon reasons abt this Satan and GOD to explain but world has many stories already so i dun buy it.
But think. There are still so many faraway things that scientists have said to have proven like black holes and quasars. How would we know they really exist? How would we know they're not just anomalies in the system? Science, which most atheists seem to advocate, also requires some amount of faith. See the irony here?
Now before you start telling me how religions are worse and how much proof they lack, remember that there are widespread documentations of miracles as well. Jesus definitely existed as many historical sources agree on His existence.
Again, all things happen in His time. We lament God's seeming cruelty, God's seeming absence, God's seeming "uncaring"-ness because we cannot know what He is thinking. Besides, this hasn't proved there isn't a God. You can't exactly prove a negative unless you disprove it absolutely.
to me, fact that reality is what it is, its has merciless... you can be smart, or kind, but if you are unlucky to be knocked by car and become vegetable, then you will be suffer as a vegetable. cruel but this is the nature of reality and the prove that there is no GOD watching over us. GO to heaven? well, people just talk about heaven all the time -
there r many miracles which people say haf been a creations of god n makings of god...but as far as i see, there may still b other possibilities...im not against ur religions or anything but i dun believe in things unless i see that there is concrete proof that something is the onli reason that the miracle had happened...its true that many things haf not been discovered n cannot b properly explained by scientists...we r afterall juz human...the universe is so big n i believe we can nvr find out everything...as we learn more, we realise that there r more things which we duno...i dun deny the possibility that a god exists but until it has been proven...i will not give my faith in any religion or things which haf no scientific proof...Originally posted by SturmDerSchatten:Proof is next to useless in religion as a great amount of faith is required. Indeed, most people can't understand how others can believe in something that hasn't been proven.
But think. There are still so many faraway things that scientists have said to have proven like black holes and quasars. How would we know they really exist? How would we know they're not just anomalies in the system? Science, which most atheists seem to advocate, also requires some amount of faith. See the irony here?
Now before you start telling me how religions are worse and how much proof they lack, remember that there are widespread documentations of miracles as well. Jesus definitely existed as many historical sources agree on His existence. -
But this part is cr*p lah..Originally posted by SturmDerSchatten:Now before I write this I'd just like to say that although I'm Christian, I believe in the need for logic and reasoning; not all Christians are irrational and pious. To say that would be equivalent to saying all Muslims are terrorists, which they [b]definitely aren't..[/b][/quote] wah, impressive... I wished more Christians are like you...
I like what you said:
[quote]Originally posted by SturmDerSchatten:
"Proof is next to useless in religion as a great amount of faith is required."Originally posted by SturmDerSchatten:Indeed, most people can't understand how others can believe in something that hasn't been proven. But think. There are still so many faraway things that scientists have said to have proven like black holes and quasars. How would we know they really exist? How would we know they're not just anomalies in the system? Science, which most atheists seem to advocate, also requires some amount of faith. See the irony here?
In Science, you do not believe anything... no faith is required... because you do not believe anything. All you do is accept the findings or reject the findings... Those findings that you accept, you can throw them out any time when new and better findings/theories come along... -
quote:Originally posted by SturmDerSchatten:
Ok, I realize that didn't come out right. Sorry. =P
"Proof is next to useless in religion as a great amount of faith is required."
But this part is cr*p lah..
The thing is, that proof is really hard to find now, and I think that might be the very thing that is causing the growth of atheism. Come to think of it, there haven't been many religious happenings and miracles we've heard of lately.
Perhaps, but what is it that makes you accept those findings? You have to believe in them first. It's just like the Laws of Physics. We know of Newton's Three Laws of Motion, but why do we accept them in the first place? There has to be some faith in it for the entire scientific community to accept them as true.
In Science, you do not believe anything... no faith is required... because you do not believe anything. All you do is accept the findings or reject the findings... Those findings that you accept, you can throw them out any time when new and better findings/theories come along... -
You accept based on "mathematical models", for example...Originally posted by SturmDerSchatten:Perhaps, but what is it that makes you accept those findings? You have to believe in them first. It's just like the Laws of Physics. We know of Newton's Three Laws of Motion, but why do we accept them in the first place? There has to be some faith in it for the entire scientific community to accept them as true.
You accept based on "observations", for example...
You accept based on "testing" for example...
and you accept only after all three if you can do all three...
The example you cited... You can easily scrutinize the mathematical models, observe the Laws in action and test the Laws (of Motion)....
If you stick with Religion requires lots of Faith, you cannot go wrong... nobody can complain about people having Faith... it is your choice, it is your prerogative, but don't bother to compare science with religion... you can never win... it is because of the scientific method that you are able to type on the computer, click "submit" and transmit your thoughts into the internet... no amount of faith would have enabled man to do that... -
^ Oh well. You have a point there.
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You are so reasonable and if you keep your faith (not rules and regulations of religions) you will "enter into the kingdom", I am sure of it... but you might have to suffer... and if you can take the suffering... it will be worth it... just don't be scared to discard all the cr*p that you hear week in and week out in religious buildings... Be like Jesus and throw out religious teachings...Originally posted by SturmDerSchatten:^ Oh well. You have a point there. -
^ Thanks!
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based on non-duality:
i would say, unless you stay still and don't progress at all, there's "fundamental faith" involve in non-faith-ed examples.
"mathematical models", "observations", "testing" can have errors too.
positivity in negativity and negativity in positivity.
"form is emptiness and emptiness is form" per se.
a child walks, by trying a error, hence went though "observations n testing". but to make the first step is in itself a "lead of tiny faith".
in buddhism we call it "dao4 yuan2 gong1 de2 mu3".
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Exactly. God has reasons, but it's not up to us to know what these reasons are. He's on a much higher level than us. An analogy would be us and bacteria. If they had the same level of sentience as us, and us a proportinally adjusted level of sentience, we would seem like gods to them, no? Since we perform so many experiments on them; we kill them, we test them on other creatures, we rip them apart to determine their internal workings, wouldn't they be screaming "Why are the gods doing this to us?!" They wouldn't be able to know, right? It's the same with people and God.
your analogy is wrong and misleading.
we operate on bacteria.. but we are still human .. we are not god...
atheist talks about natural thing..not supernatural...
we study bacteria cos of we want to get knowledge....
we kill them becos we dun care about them .. and we dun think they are suffering. but we are not GOD..