What is the point of religion (or none) for you anyway?
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To say that Faith and Religion is "Good" or "Bad" is dualistic.
It is both good and bad and neither good nor bad. It depends. It can be good OR bad and can be good AND bad....
There is nothing inherently existing in reality... hahaha unfortunately most Buddhists themselves do not understand what they preach... -
Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
Agree Agree....
To say that Faith and Religion is "Good" or "Bad" is dualistic.
It is both good and bad and neither good nor bad. It depends. It can be good [b]OR bad and can be good AND bad....
There is nothing inherently existing in reality... hahaha unfortunately most Buddhists themselves do not understand what they preach...[/b] -
careful with ur argument, only is a universal term which is often wrong.Originally posted by Phaze:Only faith and religion can make good people do bad things.
this will arouse feelings in opponents who then attack at this point.
anyway, this statment iswrong, many things other than faith and religion can make good people do bad things. good is subjective anyway.
basically UFO comet suicidal people are a evidence that irrationality is a bad thing to human. these people are unlucky to be born in the wrong place and wrong time and meet wrong people and read the wrong thing to be who they are.
in terms of a broad field of casuality, such incidents are are to avoid because human is still not really in a age of reason and rationale yet at our current era. -
A nice argument, Phaze. Yes, it makes a lot of sense, but I'd like to refer to these three things you said.Originally posted by Phaze:Good people will do good things.
Bad people will do bad things.
Only faith and religion can make good people do bad things.
Don't you think "good" and "bad" are subjective? A good guy to some may be a bad guy to others. Allow me to use a simple analogy.
Suppose there's a person in a school who's smashing school property and equipment like wood saws, basketballs, VCRs, etc. Most people would immediately think that it's a bad kid performing these acts of vandalism. Then suppose you find out that the teachers in charge of these equipment aren't all that upset, because the stuff that got smashed was all not working properly anyway, and they needed the new replacements for the destroyed stuff. Because of school policy, it makes it very difficult and almost impossible to get new equipment to replace the old ones.
Now look at it this way. Wouldn't the perpertrator be doing something good? Maybe it's a good kid doing bad things for a good purpose.
This could be a case of "The ends justify the means." But don't think that it can be applied to everything. Some instances of such are just wrong, like the Inquisition during the 1400s to 1500s.
To say that good people do good things and bad people do bad things is a very close-minded thing to do. One can't exactly classify people like this, because the classifiers (i.e. "good" and "bad") are extremely subjective and vague!
Yes, I admit, faith and religion do drive people to do harmful things. Examples can be the Tokyo Subway Sarin Incident and the very many terrorists that blow themselves up in the name of Islam. It is a sad fact that religion has been used as a tool for controlling the masses, and that is why even though I am a Christian, I am reluctant to follow what I consider a system of worship done by the Church.
However, do not forget that there are many factors that drive people to do bad things. Unrequited love, depression, unabatable anger; these can all turn people into beasts. Think about it. -
Perhaps I need to elaborate.Originally posted by january:careful with ur argument, only is a universal term which is often wrong.
this will arouse feelings in opponents who then attack at this point.
anyway, this statment iswrong, many things other than faith and religion can make good people do bad things. good is subjective anyway.
basically UFO comet suicidal people are a evidence that irrationality is a bad thing to human. these people are unlucky to be born in the wrong place and wrong time and meet wrong people and read the wrong thing to be who they are.
in terms of a broad field of casuality, such incidents are are to avoid because human is still not really in a age of reason and rationale yet at our current era.
You are correct to say good is subjective. That was implicit in the point I was trying to make.
Everyone (excluding perhaps the mentally ill) does what they think is good. Only in comic books and movies do people actually try to do 'evil'. When a person does something 'evil', they usually justify it to themselves in some way. They make 'evil' become their good.
I mentioned before that even the religious have a rationale and reason for their beliefs. The main difference is really boils down to epistemology.
When a shooter girl at a pub underpours vodka shots, she's not thinking, "oh I need to cheat this person of his drinks." She is thinking, "I need to earn as much money as possible to support my family." or "This person shouldn't drink so much so I am doing him a favor by underpouring."
But religion takes the moral responsibility away from the person. It's takes away the need to justify one's actions. I can kill someone because God commanded it. Any action can be justified on the basis of God's command. But wait! Some argue that you must evaluate the supposed instruction. If someone tells you that god is commanding you to kill someone, you should recognize that the person is a false prophet because god would never give such an instruction (though god did do so many times in the bible). This is sort of similar to instructions to soldiers not to follow illegal orders.
The difference here is:
A soldier knows that his superior is human and fallable. A solider knows that his superior can make mistakes. Based on the Military Code of Conduct, a soldier is in a position to determine if the order he received was legal or illegal.
The three monotheistic religions believe that God is infallable. They have no way to evaluate right and wrong because there is no standard of good and evil independant of god. Good is whatever God says it is. You also don't have to explain anything because "God is beyond human understanding."
I hope this clears up what I meant. -
Hi Sturm,Originally posted by SturmDerSchatten:However, do not forget that there are many factors that drive people to do bad things. Unrequited love, depression, unabatable anger; these can all turn people into beasts. Think about it.
I sort of regret using that statement now.
I tried to explain it further in my previous post (see my response to January).
I do agree with the point you made that there are many conditions that can turn people into beasts. But I still feel that they rationalize their behavior. Eg. It's justified to hurt others because you were hurt yourself. An eye for an eye. Etc.
Religion however, absolves one from the need to justify one's actions. Responsibility is instead based on a non-existent (I know whether god exists is a point of debate but since I'm an atheist, accept that presupposition for now okay ) higher being. -
Generalization!! Objection!Originally posted by january:careful with ur argument, only is a universal term which is often wrong.
this will arouse feelings in opponents who then attack at this point.
anyway, this statment iswrong, many things other than faith and religion can make good people do bad things. good is subjective anyway.
basically UFO comet suicidal people are a evidence that irrationality is a bad thing to human. these people are unlucky to be born in the wrong place and wrong time and meet wrong people and read the wrong thing to be who they are.
in terms of a broad field of casuality, such incidents are are to avoid because human is still not really in a age of reason and rationale yet at our current era.