What is the point of religion (or none) for you anyway?
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Originally posted by Eric Cartman:
Like I said so many times it is not a matter of whether you understand it conceptually, whether it makes sense to your mind or you understand how it works, etc.
Insight that luminosity is mind.
D.T.Suzuki the famous Zen writer wrote 8 points of an authentic satori/awakening experience.1. Irrationality. "By this I mean that Satori is not a conclusion to be reached by reasoning, and defies all intellectual determination. Those who have experienced it are always at a loss to explain it coherently or logically."
2. Intuitive Insight. "That there is noetic quality in mystic experiences has been pointed out by (William) James...Another name for Satori is Kensho (chien-hsing in Chinese) meaning "to see essence or nature," which apparently proves that there is "seeing" or "perceiving" in Satori...Without this noetic quality Satori will lose all its pungency, for it is really the reason of Satori itself. "
3. Authoritativeness. "By this I mean that the knowledge realized by Satori is final, that no amount of logical argument can refute it. Being direct and personal it is sufficient unto itself. All that logic can do here is to explain it, to interpret it in connection to other kinds of knowledge with which our minds are filled. Satori is thus a form of perception, an inner perception, which takes place in the most interior part of consciousness.
4. Affirmation. "What is authoritative and final can never be negative. Though the Satori experience is sometimes expressed in negative terms, it is essentially an affirmative attidude towards all things that exist; it accepts them as they come along regardless of their moral values."
5. Sense of the Beyond. "...in Satori there is always what we may call a sense of the Beyond; the experience indeed is my own but I feel it to be rooted elsewhere. The individual shell in which my personality is so solidly encased explodes at the moment of Satori. Not, necessarily, that I get unified with a being greater than myself or absorbed in it, but that my individuality, which I found rigidly held together and definitely kept separate from other individual existences, becomes lossened somehow from its tightening grip and melts away into something indescribable, something which is of quite a different order from what I am accustomed to. The feeling that follows is that of complete release or a complete rest---the feeling that one has arrived finally at the destination...As far as the psychology of Satori is considered, a sense of the Beyond is all we can say about it; to call this the Beyond, the Absolute, or God, or a Person is to go further than the experience itself and to plunge into a theology or metaphysics." See #5 above as well as Turiyatita.
6. Impersonal Tone. "Perhaps the most remarkable aspect of the Zen experience is that it has no personal note in it as is observable in Christian mystic experiences."
7. Feeling of exaltation. "That this feeling inevitably accompanies Satori is due to the fact that it is the breaking-up of the restriction imposed on one as an individual being, and this breaking up is not a mere negative incident but quite a positive one fraught with signification because it means an infinite expansion of the individual."
8. Momentariness. "Satori comes upon one abruptly and is a momentary experience. In fact, if it is not abrupt and momentary, it is not Satori.Why can't sleeping be a meditation when sitting meditation is also just sitting there with a quiet mind?
There is no mindfulness to penetrate reality during sleep. You simply cannot practise in sleep.. but non dual can naturally propel into even the dream phases and the subconscious/8th consciousness when you reach certain stage.Thusness also said that sleeping is the deepest samadhi.
Samadhi is just samadhi, a state of complete cessation of subject and object, a form of non dual absorption. It does not necessarily provides any insights at all. -
BTW Eric, I do not wish to deviate/lead this topic to off topic. Please continue this Buddhist discussion in BWB.
*Returns to discussing "What is the point of religion (or none) for you anyway?"* -
We share similarities, like the good mental qualities of love, etc, and also many similarities in morality, etc, but major tenets cannot be mixed. We cannot accept eternalism, nihilism, or extreme views like the Jains.Originally posted by Eric Cartman:Religions are already mixed whether you like it or not. All teach about love for example. I also said that I will only take out whatever is useful from each. -
hur hur.. bullseye.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:You are a "bad nut" for making it sound like I am doing a bad thing
What is a forum for if not for "endless debates" ??? 
so evil. tsk. tsk.
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to study buddhism alone is not good enough. its better to study a wide range of useful subjects to draw out more essence. buddhism teachings is a bit alien language once u go deeper with all those wierd terminology. its going be inefficient studying it.
i recommend the following subjects to read and do
1)philosophy, psychology, zen, budhhism, self helps books from modern writers, self help articles in internet
2)writing down your beliefs and argument in a book
3)sitting down and thinking through all your beliefs and understand their correlation and individual characteristics. imagine everything in the universe and try to see the interconnection among everything.
4)apply your knowledge to real life and learn from experiencing -
I dont study buddhism. I just hang around and see what I can get out of it. I'm lazy to look around for more philosophy. Philosophy sux anyway it stays at the mental level.Originally posted by january:to study buddhism alone is not good enough. its better to study a wide range of useful subjects to draw out more essence. buddhism teachings is a bit alien language once u go deeper with all those wierd terminology. its going be inefficient studying it.
i recommend the following subjects to read and do
1)philosophy, psychology, zen, budhhism, self helps books from modern writers, self help articles in internet
2)writing down your beliefs and argument in a book
3)sitting down and thinking through all your beliefs and understand their correlation and individual characteristics. imagine everything in the universe and try to see the interconnection among everything.
4)apply your knowledge to real life and learn from experiencing -
wtf.Originally posted by Eric Cartman:I dont study buddhism. I just hang around and see what I can get out of it. I'm lazy to look around for more philosophy. Philosophy sux anyway it stays at the mental level. -
den what's the point of u for creating this topic?Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:You are a "bad nut" for making it sound like I am doing a bad thing What is a forum for if not for "endless debates" ??? -
What?Originally posted by Ito_^:wtf. If you took the ceremony I guess you can call yourself a Buddhist, but would they have allowed you to take the ceremony if you had told them you are in it only for the "philosophy"? That you have no wish to participate in Buddhists ceremonies because you do not believe in the ceremonies?
Buddhism is not about being "part of them". It is all about the dharma (which you call philosophy). That's what buddha wanted it to be and if any sect today says otherwise then they fail. -
You merely know them academically.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:No worries since I am very clear about the problems of other teachings. -
Like you said previously, it is not just a philosophy. Buddhism does not make any philosophical assertion of any ultimate or absolute as having inherent existence, and all words merely point to the moon, the words or "philosophy" not being the dharma itself, therefore the Buddha 'spoke no dharma'. You can refer to marcteng's topic.Originally posted by Eric Cartman:Buddhism is not about being "part of them". It is all about the dharma (which you call philosophy). That's what buddha wanted it to be and if any sect today says otherwise then they fail. -
Actually if you do not have a dualistic mind, you can learn from Christianity just as you can learn from Science text books.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Put it plainly, you can't mix. But you can respect. -
There are many things worthy of learning, like Jesus Christ's 'sacrificial', generous and loving spirit, and also things that I have to reject.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Actually if you do not have a dualistic mind, you can learn from Christianity just as you can learn from Science text books. -
Yes it is the essence behind and not CME lessons.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Like you said previously, it is not just a philosophy. Buddhism does not make any philosophical assertion of any ultimate or absolute as having inherent existence, and all words merely point to the moon, the words or "philosophy" not being the dharma itself, therefore the Buddha 'spoke no dharma'. You can refer to marcteng's topic. -
Some Christians will probably pick up some insights from Buddhism and reject many things. First and foremost, they will definitely reject having a statue with an incense holder in front. I know Buddhist say that it is not worship but "respect"; still it "looks" too much like worship for a Christian to even consider. There are other things that they will reject too...Originally posted by An Eternal Now:There are many things worthy of learning, like Jesus Christ's 'sacrificial', generous and loving spirit, and also things that I have to reject. -
I am an Atheist because ...
i dont wish to spend my money and precious time praying to a piece of wood ? knowing that no matter what u said to that wood , u wont get anything in return.
because... i juz dont understand how those church go-er can throw money into 1 of their "donation" session which i dont know what they call that.
because.....attending church is juz like going clubbing , u can see how high they get when they started singing , u can see how high they get when the pastor "heal" someone like what priest did in maplestory .
omf[g] , save them . precious money r being thrown into polishing the wood or whatever material they using now. -
Originally posted by givemeluck:I am an Atheist because ...
i dont wish to spend my money and precious time praying to a piece of wood ? knowing that no matter what u said to that wood , u wont get anything in return.
because... i juz dont understand how those church go-er can throw money into 1 of their "donation" session which i dont know what they call that.
because.....attending church is juz like going clubbing , u can see how high they get when they started singing , u can see how high they get when the pastor "heal" someone like what priest did in maplestory .
omf[g] , save them . precious money r being thrown into polishing the wood or whatever material they using now. why you never complain about people "throwing away" their money at MOS or Zouk getting drunk? or people "throwing away" their money to pay for COE and GST... just so that some people can raise their million dollars salaries? -
hanor hanorOriginally posted by AndrewPKYap: why you never complain about people "throwing away" their money at MOS or Zouk getting drunk? or people "throwing away" their money to pay for COE and GST... just so that some people can raise their million dollars salaries? -
because u r throwing money into something that is not real ? juz to build a nicer looking building ?Originally posted by AndrewPKYap: why you never complain about people "throwing away" their money at MOS or Zouk getting drunk? or people "throwing away" their money to pay for COE and GST... just so that some people can raise their million dollars salaries?
GST and COE that 1 is bo pian. what else can we do about that ? -
the point of atheism is saving of precious time to do better thing instead of singing and praying thinking that this will give you a place in heaven and thinking that this will really help you avoid disaster.
I am amazed by the amount of theories and explanation they have in religion. No wonder this argument is endless debate.
In some sense, i should just let people be religious, in terms of competition, its good for me. can you imagine me doing real work when problem arise while another person just go and pray.
remember time is a important resource. How u use it affects your life.
in terms of cooperation, its bad for me. imagine working with people who believeing more in praying or asking god rather than just focusing on what can be done. -
I am a Freethinker.. but i am like becoming an Atheist..
a quoto that has a great impact on me :
Facing life's challenges on your own and tackling them with your bare hands is a very tough one. Not many can do it. Sorry to say but it reflects on the individual's weak mental state when they turn to religion to seek solace. Nothing wrong with that but its just weak. -
Having a good time at Zouk is real meh?Originally posted by givemeluck:because u r throwing money into something that is not real ? juz to build a nicer looking building ?
GST and COE that 1 is bo pian. what else can we do about that ?
Have you ever visited "Charismatic" churches or not? The way many of the people in the audience behave, it is like "better than sex" -
The way you put it, it is like they are all cuckoo or something. You really think these people pray and "do not see the doctor" or "take their medicine" ?Originally posted by january:the point of atheism is saving of precious time to do better thing instead of singing and praying thinking that this will give you a place in heaven and thinking that this will really help you avoid disaster.
I am amazed by the amount of theories and explanation they have in religion. No wonder this argument is endless debate.
In some sense, i should just let people be religious, in terms of competition, its good for me. can you imagine me doing real work when problem arise while another person just go and pray.
remember time is a important resource. How u use it affects your life.
in terms of cooperation, its bad for me. imagine working with people who believeing more in praying or asking god rather than just focusing on what can be done.
The prayer gives them "hope"
Faith Hope and Love... but the greatest of these is Love.
Furthermore, you think that it gives you a competitive edge... well it is true only to a certain extent.
In this world some people get struck by lightning and your success or lack of it need not necessarily come from a superior intellect. There are too many "factors' involved in success and failures. Furthermore, success and failure is very subjective and personal. -
Well, if you are not "strong" you better find a religion to seek solace in!Originally posted by HolySniper:I am a Freethinker.. but i am like becoming an Atheist..
a quoto that has a great impact on me :
Facing life's challenges on your own and tackling them with your bare hands is a very tough one. Not many can do it. Sorry to say but it reflects on the individual's weak mental state when they turn to religion to seek solace. Nothing wrong with that but its just weak.
It can be "for the time being" until you feel that you are strong enough. -
I spent 5 long weeks at City Harvest to experience it for myself.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Having a good time at Zouk is real meh?
Have you ever visited "Charismatic" churches or not? The way many of the people in the audience behave, it is like "better than sex" 
That's 9 sessions total. 5 services and 4 cell group sessions.
The cell group group consisted of 13 people. 10 of them working. The other 3 still in school. In the last building donation drive. Those 10 people, in a single day, pledged about $28,000 to the building fund. This is in addition to their tithe and twice a week offering.
They are without exception, sincere in their belief and their love for god.
But I think the difference between Zouk and church is that Zouk doesn't lie to you. At Zouk, you know what you are getting. You're buying alcohol, a chance to let loose, and perhaps a chance of getting laid. One could argue that Zouk only makes you think you have a chance, but I would argue that most people understand and recognize Zouk for what it is and they are able to choose freely to go to Zouk.
When people go to church, do they just go for the experience? For those who just go for the fellowship, to sing a few songs and perhaps get lucky with some hot church gals, I would say sure, go ahead. But if you are going because you believe in something that isn't true, your free will has been taken away from you because you have been deprived of the information needed to make a good decision.
For those would argue that faith does not hurt anyone, I would like to mention Heaven's Gate.
Heaven's Gate was the name of a cult co-led by Marshall Applewhite and Bonnie Smith.
The cult's end coincided with the appearance of Comet Hale-Bopp in 1997. Applewhite convinced thirty-eight followers to commit suicide so that their souls could take a ride on a spaceship that they believed was hiding behind the comet carrying Jesus; such beliefs have led some observers to characterize the group as a type of "UFO religion." They believed that the Earth planet is about to be recycled (wiped clean, refurbished and rejuvenated), and the only chance to survive is to leave it immediately [1]. The group was formally against the suicide, but they were convinced that their "human" bodies were only "vehicles" meant to help them on their journey, though they likely thought that their actions were something different as well. [2]. The group was practicing direct hate to the surrounding world: It is also possible that part of our test of faith is our hating this world, even our flesh body, to the extent to be willing to leave it without any proof of the Next Level's existence.
They thought that the willingness to leave their bodies was a test of faith.
Good people will do good things.
Bad people will do bad things.
Only faith and religion can make good people do bad things.