When will you get to the part that the Great Commission was not fulfilled by the people who can? I'd assume that you WILL eventually get to this part, right? Or are you just going to criticise the other side and pretend that everything's ok on your side?Originally posted by breytonhartge:I am not bad mouthing as you say, just pointing out the errors which were committed.
JEws do not evangelise because the Torah was given to them, you want to know about Hashem, you have to go an ask.Originally posted by Chin Eng:err.... so Jews do not have to evanglise? and Messianic jews have to evangelise?
So does it mean that when the Great Commission was issued, there were no Messianic Jews, therefore this commission was not fulfilled because those who can fulfil it does not exist back then.... that being the case those that did the actual leg work actually don't need to do...hah?
In other words, because those who should be doing the real evangelism does not exist, those who did the evangelism got it all wrong.... and after 2000 years, the real workers turn up, and now need to clean up the crap???
Then you guys got to work faster man! Too much crap to clean up....![]()
The great commission is still being fulfilled by the people who can, the Jews make disciples all the time. The church on the other hand are not making disciples, they are making proselytes and believers... totally different.Originally posted by Chin Eng:When will you get to the part that the Great Commission was not fulfilled by the people who can? I'd assume that you WILL eventually get to this part, right? Or are you just going to criticise the other side and pretend that everything's ok on your side?
OK, say the church got it wrong. So far all that's been said is: the church got it wrong.Originally posted by breytonhartge:How do you constructively put the fact that the church got it wrong? They got it wrong, no matter how you want to try and sugar coat it, the fact is they got it wrong and this will still sting.
Originally posted by breytonhartge:2000 yrs too late past the Great Commission..... please ask them to work faster.
JEws do not evangelise because the Torah was given to them, you want to know about Hashem, you have to go an ask.
Messianic Jews evangelise because they know Yeshua and are trying to put the correct story out there.
The goyim church has lost a lot of its roots, that is why the church is in the predicament that it is in today. Don't blame the Jews for this one!
The problem started because the goyim portion of the early church feared rome more than they feared Hashem. That is why. It just sort of went down hill from there. Here is your why.Originally posted by Chin Eng:OK, say the church got it wrong. So far all that's been said is: the church got it wrong.
You stop to ask WHY the church got it wrong? In every problem analysis skill taught, knowing the why is important.
You think perhaps, that the reason may be: the people that were suppose to fulfil the Great Commission did not do a good job? and that a "second rate" set of workers will put to the task and fell short?
So, how did the problem started?
What if they have been but the church has not been listening??Originally posted by Chin Eng:2000 yrs too late past the Great Commission..... please ask them to work faster.
Yes, what if.... or what if not....Originally posted by breytonhartge:What if they have been but the church has not been listening??![]()
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I know you are confused .. I am too!Originally posted by Chin Eng:So does it mean that when the Great Commission was issued, there were no Messianic Jews, therefore this commission was not fulfilled because those who can fulfil it does not exist back then.... that being the case those that did the actual leg work actually don't need to do...hah?
Originally - religion of the Israelites (the one you find in the Old Testament)So actually the Judaism we find today is a *cousin* of Christianity. But each claim a direct lineage to the original Israel religion from Sinai. (And don't forget the Muslims too)
(Second Temple rebuilt, then Jewish Diaspora .. no Jewish nation)
1st century - Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes
And a bit later - Rabbinical Judaism and Christianity (Catholic Church)
Now - Orthodox, Conservative, Reform Jews etc ; 36000 Protestant sects, Catholics
is that all you can say? work faster??Originally posted by Chin Eng:2000 yrs too late past the Great Commission..... please ask them to work faster.
orh!Originally posted by Icemoon:Notice if Brey switched to the rabbinical Jewish view .. he won't have to answer so many questions that make his position untenable.
Because there is no Great Commission if you don't take the NT as Scripture!!
Brey .. are you listening?
or what if...Originally posted by Chin Eng:Yes, what if.... or what if not....
actually more like christianity bullied itsway into the lineage... it was never meant to be this way.Originally posted by Icemoon:So actually the Judaism we find today is a *cousin* of Christianity. But each claim a direct lineage to the original Israel religion from Sinai. (And don't forget the Muslims too)
So where are the Messianic Jews? Their forerunners - the Ebionites - existed during the early days. Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites
But God did not preserve them. This is the argument I am trying to make. Objectively speaking, from the tree, Christianity and rabbinical Judaism were preserved.
Yeshua said Kefa is the rock upon which He will build His church.Originally posted by breytonhartge:What if they have been but the church has not been listening??![]()
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But the bully was the only one promoting Yeshua before the Messianic movement started after the enlightenment.Originally posted by breytonhartge:actually more like christianity bullied itsway into the lineage... it was never meant to be this way.![]()
why not?!Originally posted by Icemoon:Yeshua said Kefa is the rock upon which He will build His church.
Whether the church is protestant or catholic or both combined .. your position is still untenable.![]()
No you get saved by following Hashem.Originally posted by Icemoon:Sorry, promoting Yeshua per se won't get you saved.
The bully promotes the Gospel of Christ.
The bully did not start of predominantly goyim, it was predominantly Jewish in make up...Originally posted by Icemoon:But the bully was the only one promoting Yeshua before the Messianic movement started after the enlightenment.![]()
One reason why Christianity is successful is the accessibility. If those bullies did nothing and wait for your Messianic forebears, Christianity would be struggling today. Many will have died without hearing the Gospel of Christ.Originally posted by breytonhartge:is that all you can say? work faster??![]()
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Originally posted by Icemoon:no different to other religions then...
One reason why Christianity is successful is the accessibility. If those bullies did nothing and wait for your Messianic forebears, Christianity would be struggling today. [b]Many will have died without hearing the Gospel of Christ.[/b]
Look at the success rate today.Originally posted by breytonhartge:No you get saved by following Hashem.![]()
did the Holy scriptures say that all will be saved? no. only a remanant... don't quote me on this one, but I remember reading somewhere 1/3?? Not sure.Originally posted by Icemoon:Look at the success rate today.
The Messianic movement is largely made up of former Jews and Christians? How many are actually secular converts?
The Gospel of Christ is the gist. Please read more of Apostle Paul.Originally posted by breytonhartge:no different to other religions then...hmmmm.....