The church will not be raptured.
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The rapture is a false teaching, we as believers have to understand that we are not getting out of here before the judgements of Yahweh.
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u mean it will be post-tribulation? tta all have to go thru the 7yr tribulation n tat onli those found faithful to the end will be saved?
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Read through the book of revelations carefully, does it ever state anywhere that the church will be raptured? Yeshua only comes after all the warth of Yahweh has been poured out.
Even in 1 Thessalonians 4:2 when it talks about the return of Messiah, it says that Messiah will descend from Heaven and those that REMAIN will be caught up with those who sleep to meet the Lord in the air.
Many think that salvation is being in Heaven with Yeshua, but there will be a literal city, a new earth and a NEW Jerusalem. Where only those whose names are written in the book of life may enter. -
definitely post trib. But there are rewards for those who are faithful and who have died in His name.Originally posted by despondent:u mean it will be post-tribulation? tta all have to go thru the 7yr tribulation n tat onli those found faithful to the end will be saved? -
yup, too many doctrine on this subject
1) Pre-Trib : There will be a rapture of the believers before the Tribulation, these will follow Yeshua to come back during His second coming
2) Post-Trib : There will be a gathering of believers/faithfuls who had proven themselves and remained faithful through out the Tribulation.
3) Mid-Trib : The faithful will be gather mid-way through the Tribulation
others can be a combination of one or more of these....
Personally? I have no idea, have not done any indepth study on them.
Any anixety on this? yes, very curious on this, but I also know and believe Yeshua is faithful, and because He is faithful I can rest in His peace and entrusted with Him my future.
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brey, r u one of those who take the OSAS stand? cos ppl who take tis stand usually believe in either pre or mid-tribulation...my church n myself dun take OSAS, hence we believe in post-tribulation...
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i used to take the OSAS stand, now I do not, having learnt what I know. That is why I say post trib. There is no where in the bible that says pre or mid trib. That would mean that Yeshua comes back twiceOriginally posted by despondent:brey, r u one of those who take the OSAS stand? cos ppl who take tis stand usually believe in either pre or mid-tribulation...my church n myself dun take OSAS, hence we believe in post-tribulation...
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actually isnt there a passage in the book of revelations that says that there is a place of refuge for believers? something about our flight?Originally posted by vince69:yup, too many doctrine on this subject
1) Pre-Trib : There will be a rapture of the believers before the Tribulation, these will follow Yeshua to come back during His second coming
2) Post-Trib : There will be a gathering of believers/faithfuls who had proven themselves and remained faithful through out the Tribulation.
3) Mid-Trib : The faithful will be gather mid-way through the Tribulation
others can be a combination of one or more of these....
Personally? I have no idea, have not done any indepth study on them.
Any anixety on this? yes, very curious on this, but I also know and believe Yeshua is faithful, and because He is faithful I can rest in His peace and entrusted with Him my future. -
pre trib.. and mid trib have no verses to support this. unless you know of any?Originally posted by vince69:yup, too many doctrine on this subject
1) Pre-Trib : There will be a rapture of the believers before the Tribulation, these will follow Yeshua to come back during His second coming
2) Post-Trib : There will be a gathering of believers/faithfuls who had proven themselves and remained faithful through out the Tribulation.
3) Mid-Trib : The faithful will be gather mid-way through the Tribulation
others can be a combination of one or more of these....
Personally? I have no idea, have not done any indepth study on them.
Any anixety on this? yes, very curious on this, but I also know and believe Yeshua is faithful, and because He is faithful I can rest in His peace and entrusted with Him my future. -
to answer your question, I will need to do some studies on End-times prophecy (which I have not really doneOriginally posted by breytonhartge:pre trib.. and mid trib have no verses to support this. unless you know of any?
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just from the bible, any verses come to mind??Originally posted by vince69:to answer your question, I will need to do some studies on End-times prophecy (which I have not really done )
How is your car? -
Could you please explain a little more about the 7 year tribulation? How are the 7 years calculated and is there a reference to this in the Bible? Thanks!Originally posted by despondent:u mean it will be post-tribulation? tta all have to go thru the 7yr tribulation n tat onli those found faithful to the end will be saved? -
How Long Is the Great Tribulation?Originally posted by Yaffa:Could you please explain a little more about the 7 year tribulation? How are the 7 years calculated and is there a reference to this in the Bible? Thanks!
The "great tribulation" refers to the time of crisis at the close of the age of man. Jesus spoke of "great tribulation" in Matthew 24:21 and told John to write of it in Revelation 7:14.
Several events are prophesied to occur during the crucial last days:
The area outside of the temple in Jerusalem will be controlled by non-Israelite powers (Revelation 11:2).
The two witnesses of God will fulfill their commission (verse 3).
The beast power, a counterfeit of the Kingdom of God, will dominate world politics, religion and economics (Revelation 13:5).
An unparalleled "time of great trouble" will come on the people of Israel, affecting also "the holy people" (Daniel 12:1, 7).
Notice that a common time-period is mentioned in conjunction with these events:
42 months.
1,260 days.
"A time, times, and half a time."
These are variations of the same period-3 1/2 years (not seven years, as commonly suggested by many rapture-believers for the time of the great tribulation).
Note Wycliffe Commentary's notes on Daniel 12:7:
"The consummation is to take place when the three and one-half times (31/2 years; 1,260 days; 42 months) so frequently mentioned in Daniel's previous prophecies and in the Revelation are run out."
Rapture theorists base their idea of a seven-year tribulation on a single reference, Daniel 9:27, which tells of a covenant made "for a week" by a "prince who is to come." This prince will cut off sacrifices "in the midst of the week," an act that will herald the beginning of the crisis at the end. A week in prophecy, goes the reasoning, represents a year and hence refers to a seven-year period.
(Some believe the prince to be the Antichrist, while others believe it is Christ. The Messiah was cut off in the midst of a week, or after 31/2 years of His earthly ministry, as well as on a Wednesday, the middle of a literal week.)
If this is a prophecy of the Antichrist, the crisis begins "in the middle," or after 31/2 years, leaving another 31/2 years remaining for the fulfillment of the close-of-the-age events mentioned above. Note as well that the period would also be the same as prophesied in the above references to the main events of the end.
Clearly the Bible does not support the idea of a seven-year tribulation. -
Notice we meet the Lord in the air not on Mount Zion! There are two phases to His coming. One is in the clouds and the other on Mount Zion. It will be funny if believers got raptured and immediately come down from heaven with Christ as His army.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Read through the book of revelations carefully, does it ever state anywhere that the church will be raptured? Yeshua only comes after all the warth of Yahweh has been poured out.
Even in 1 Thessalonians 4:2 when it talks about the return of Messiah, it says that Messiah will descend from Heaven and those that REMAIN will be caught up with those who sleep to meet the Lord in the air.
Many think that salvation is being in Heaven with Yeshua, but there will be a literal city, a new earth and a NEW Jerusalem. Where only those whose names are written in the book of life may enter.
Many places say that the church is raptured. It is hidden in some cases bcos the rapture is a mystery just like the church is hidden from the OT people. For eg, in Rev. 4, who are the 24 elders who are seated on thrones and crowned with crowns before the seal judgements whom John saw in heaven before the tribulation? Enoch was a type of the church who was raptured alive into heaven before the Flood and so was Elijah. The rapture happened before in OT even so why can't it happen again in NT?
The word church was not mentioned after Rev 4 to some chapter later in Rev when Christ appear with His church on Mt Zion. We are also not appointed to wrath and tribulation is God's wrath on an unbelieving world. Jesus won't beat up His bride before He comes to rapture her.
Also, the rapture can be found in Jewish wedding feast typology. In Jewish wedding, the bridegroom doesnt know the time when his father will allow him to fetch his bride and so is the bride who is expectantly waiting for her bridegroom. Once the father says go, the bridegroom will go and fetch the bride and this usually occurs at midnite. Once he has fetched the bride they will spend 7 days in their matrimonial chamber. After the 7 days are up, the bridegroom will announce they have consummated the marriage and have a feast for all the friends and family. You see, Jesus spoke about the parable of the wise and foolish virgins and the marriage supper etc so He is using the Jewish wedding feast so His Jewish believers can understand.
The bridegroom is Jesus Christ. The father is God the Father. No one knows the day or hour not even the angels in heaven or Jesus but God. Once the day arrives, Jesus will come to fetch His bride the church in the rapture usually at midnight or start of tribulation. They will spend time together in heaven for 7 years as signified by 7 days(a week in Jewish is 7 years) while all hell breaks loose on earth. After the 7 yrs(7 days) are up, they will return to earth and there will be a huge marriage supper (compare to the supper where the people die and the birds of the air feast on their flesh).
Also since no one knows the day or hour, how can it be after the tribulation since one can then count the no of days left before the second coming from the Abomination of Desolation by Antichrist? Then one will know when He comes again but no one knows the day or hour of the rapture. It will happen suddenly without any signs.
How can it be that people will be like in Noah's or Lot's day eating and marrying away when they are in the tribulation already before the second coming? They will be suffering the worst of God's wrath and satan's wrath. So the rapture can only be pre-trib bcos people will be unaware and enjoying life before it comes suddenly like a birth pang. How can they be caught suddenly unless before the trib? Compare this to what Paul said that we are not of the night but of the day so this day will not come to us as a surprise for Jesus will come like a thief in the night. It's strange to say He will come like a thief when the second coming is seen by everyone. This alludes to the rapture where people will be surprised and during the second coming people will already have known in advance and they are preparing to fight Jesus and his army on Mt. Zion with a great army.
And there are many more arguments. No time to elaborate here. -
Clearly it does support a seven yr trib. Remember Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy and 69 weeks have come to pass. Only the last week is missing. One week = 7 years in Jewish terms like what you said. The last week of 7 yrs will be the tribulation or Time of Jacob's trouble (see? It does not say time of the church's trouble) and the Great Tribulation is like what you say 3.5 yrs cos Antichrist will break his covenant with Israel in the middle of the week. So I don't see why tribulation is not 7 yrs.Originally posted by breytonhartge:How Long Is the Great Tribulation?
The "great tribulation" refers to the time of crisis at the close of the age of man. Jesus spoke of "great tribulation" in Matthew 24:21 and told John to write of it in Revelation 7:14.
Several events are prophesied to occur during the crucial last days:
The area outside of the temple in Jerusalem will be controlled by non-Israelite powers (Revelation 11:2).
The two witnesses of God will fulfill their commission (verse 3).
The beast power, a counterfeit of the Kingdom of God, will dominate world politics, religion and economics (Revelation 13:5).
An unparalleled "time of great trouble" will come on the people of Israel, affecting also "the holy people" (Daniel 12:1, 7).
Notice that a common time-period is mentioned in conjunction with these events:
42 months.
1,260 days.
"A time, times, and half a time."
These are variations of the same period-3 1/2 years (not seven years, as commonly suggested by many rapture-believers for the time of the great tribulation).
Note Wycliffe Commentary's notes on Daniel 12:7:
"The consummation is to take place when the three and one-half times (31/2 years; 1,260 days; 42 months) so frequently mentioned in Daniel's previous prophecies and in the Revelation are run out."
Rapture theorists base their idea of a seven-year tribulation on a single reference, Daniel 9:27, which tells of a covenant made "for a week" by a "prince who is to come." This prince will cut off sacrifices "in the midst of the week," an act that will herald the beginning of the crisis at the end. A week in prophecy, goes the reasoning, represents a year and hence refers to a seven-year period.
(Some believe the prince to be the Antichrist, while others believe it is Christ. The Messiah was cut off in the midst of a week, or after 31/2 years of His earthly ministry, as well as on a Wednesday, the middle of a literal week.)
If this is a prophecy of the Antichrist, the crisis begins "in the middle," or after 31/2 years, leaving another 31/2 years remaining for the fulfillment of the close-of-the-age events mentioned above. Note as well that the period would also be the same as prophesied in the above references to the main events of the end.
Clearly the Bible does not support the idea of a seven-year tribulation.