Do you like big hook??
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Just a light hearted topic for mayb some discussion.....For hook bowlers....do you like your ball to go for big hooks?? for you would prefer a smaller more controllable hook?? hehe.... i use to think, and even now...i stil like to see my ball go from left to right and hook all the way back.....haha....somehow when may ball dun hook much, even if it strike i also dun feel good, somehow...mayb a little weirdo...haha
anyway my bowling coach always tell me....you are not here for a hooking competition....wat you wan is to maximise strike chances....but somehow i stil prefer my ball hook a little more....look nicer?? -
Anyway, ever wonder why cranking seems to be very popular now?? After some research and consultation, i realise that cranking is good because of the high revolution, not exactly because to make very big hooks. Basically wat we desire is for the ball to hit the pins at very high revolution, it will have much more energy, and also when contact with the pins, the rev will cause the pins to spin instead of just being hit backwards, thus increasing strike probability.
I know there are people who use high revs just simply beacuse they desire a big hook, while it is always very spectacular(i like it too)...but i do see quite a few with real big hooks but their ball is totally out of control....so i think we need to know the true reason for using such high rev. In fact, alot of crankers at national level had to drill their ball in such a way that the ball hook less!!! amazing??? not really, reason?? their high rev will make normal leverage drilling balls over hook and hard to control, so they desire a reasonable controlled hook yet with plenty of revs for great hitting power, yet with no worries that their ball will hook so much that one lane is not enough...haha... -
One Qn: Does a ball that rolls early leads to more revs, comparatively to one that rolls later?
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For Jae's question:
Simply put, yes.
revolutions on the ball is counted as the total number of full revolutions the ball makes from the time it leaves your hand until it contacts the 1-3 (or 1-2) pocket at the pindeck.
Naturally a ball that begins a quicker rolling action / rolling earlier will chalk up more revolutions within the same 60 feet distance.
But as I've said: this is a simple answer. It only complicates thing when too many people get the wrong impression of "revs" and what it does.
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I would like to share my views about "cranking".
"To crank" is simply one way - amongst many - to describe the action certain bowlers impart action to the ball. Though more often than not, this form of delivery leads to a shot that seems like it revs a lot, the relationship between cranking and ball revolution should be one of correlation, not causality.
Since the main topic of this thread is about the number of boards we like our balls to cross, I shall not stray too far.
But ball revs is more a result of proper, smooth releases (that hence maximise leverage positions) than a sudden, whipping action. Many local bowlers from Andrew Fang to Shaun Lim all impart terrific ball action without having to break a sweat. In fact, the two i've mentioned are so smooth, you can scarcely even hear the moment their ball touches the lane.
Cranking may simply be more "popular" these days because its a more visually arresting style. Some bowlers may crank just to gain attention, whilst some spectators simply notice the crankers more, giving rise to an impression there are more of them. -
ya, rev rate is counted from the time the ball leaves the hand to the time it hits the pin, anyway roll is the part when the ball finish its hook and rolling into the pins right?? i know different people got different meanings thou.Originally posted by harmzuay:For Jae's question:
Simply put, yes.
revolutions on the ball is counted as the total number of full revolutions the ball makes from the time it leaves your hand until it contacts the 1-3 (or 1-2) pocket at the pindeck.
Naturally a ball that begins a quicker rolling action / rolling earlier will chalk up more revolutions within the same 60 feet distance.
Anyway my observation is a little different, i notice that balls, especially pearlised or shiny balls that rolls later actually revs more?? simply because when it is shiny, it encounters less friction, and when there is less friction, it actually revs faster?? just an observation la, may not be true. haha...
anyway one thing for sure that affects rev rate is the type of ball you used. Balls with symmetric cores revs faster. that is why most spinners ball are core symmetric. This info is from my ball driller cum coach la, and general observation with my balls is true.....any of you guys can observe this diff? -
ya, actually i may be wrong to say that cranking is more popular, in fact it is not even easy to crank. haha.Originally posted by harmzuay:Cranking may simply be more "popular" these days because its a more visually arresting style. Some bowlers may crank just to gain attention, whilst some spectators simply notice the crankers more, giving rise to an impression there are more of them. -
It's correct to note that ball type and ball surface help in part to determining the rate of ball revolutions of a shot. But first, a quick definition:
Roll is the motion of a ball when the axis of rotation is mostly horizontal. (i.e., the ball is revolving like a wheel / end-over-end)
All balls tend to achieve this state near the pin deck, before contact with the pins.
Spin is the motion of the ball when the axis of rotation is mostly vertical.
(i.e., ball is revolving like a DVD in the player / sideways)
Spinners aside, this type of revolution is frequently seen from when the ball is released, until around mid-lane when the ball loses its sidewards momentum and assumes more of a roll toward the pin deck.
Ball revs, on the other hand, is a different thing altogether. Its just a measure of how many full revolutions is achieved within 60 feet.
Ball surface / type (side weight, top weight, core, RG, et cetera) all influence when a ball enters, exits, or re-enters either a state of spin, roll, or a combination of the two.
Even different balls thrown by the same bowler can have different rev rates depending on what that bowler is trying to achieve with the shot. Therefore most experienced bowlers do not really take rev rate to heart. Its just a measure that some people like for its "bragging rights".
Like Enginboi has pointed out, a lot of bowlers actually give up some revs for control. Because revs does not win you any games. Consistency does.
Oh, he's right - its not easy to crank. Don't do it just for the "show".
So kids, don't try it at your neighbourhood bowling alley without proper training. -
Originally posted by harmzuay:
So actually if your ball roll too early, it is actually not a good thing right? it means too much energy has been lost, so probably the ball is too strong for the lane condition, resulting in ball reading lane too early and finishing its hook and rolling too early....
Roll is the motion of a ball when the axis of rotation is mostly horizontal. (i.e., the ball is revolving like a wheel / end-over-end)
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cranking is nice to look at..thats about it..
i still prefer the old traditional J-hook..
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haha...lets not diminish the effects of high revs which many crankers are very proud of. actually high overall ball rpm has tremendous effects on the pin actions when the high spin actually sends the pins spinning instead of just being hit backwards. it creates much more pin action and usually increases strike probability if it can be used with some consistency.
however, high revs usually results in increased reactions of balls, and the result is usually a big hook that is often hard to control. Like wat Haz said, consistency wins the game. So For high rev crankers, they will have to make adjustments to their ball drilling, such as mayb placing mass bias point on the left quadrant or such....to reduce the amt of hook, yet able to keep the high rpm for increased pin actions. it is a fine balance i guess.....not an easy thing to do, unless you hav a really good ball driller and you yourself must be real skillful and consistent. -
wat is a j hook?? did you mean the trajectory of the ball resembles the letter j?? hee.... i do agree that is a much more consistent bowling style. but to get strikes in that style you have to be very accurate, the entry angle must be just right in order to string a couple of strikes.Originally posted by stellazio:cranking is nice to look at..thats about it..
i still prefer the old traditional J-hook..
Actually the official teaching is this, the old style is precision bowling, often restricted to one or 2 board targets, where as power bowling is a area target, where you have a bigger target area of 3-4 boards, so long as you hit within this area, you have a high strike probability, this is the official teaching la, not i anyhow come out one, i first hear this from my old ball driller, he was learning at that time, but after a while he gave up. When i switch to my current ball driller he also says the same thing. Except that he has someone to prove and experiment with la, cos his son is national youth. -
ya la the one that resemble the letter J..Originally posted by enginboi:wat is a j hook?? did you mean the trajectory of the ball resembles the letter j?? hee.... i do agree that is a much more consistent bowling style. but to get strikes in that style you have to be very accurate, the entry angle must be just right in order to string a couple of strikes.
Actually the official teaching is this, the old style is precision bowling, often restricted to one or 2 board targets, where as power bowling is a area target, where you have a bigger target area of 3-4 boards, so long as you hit within this area, you have a high strike probability, this is the official teaching la, not i anyhow come out one, i first hear this from my old ball driller, he was learning at that time, but after a while he gave up. When i switch to my current ball driller he also says the same thing. Except that he has someone to prove and experiment with la, cos his son is national youth.
ur ball driller son is a national bowler..does the shop happens to be at kim seng plaza? -
... it means too much energy has been lost, so probably the ball is too strong for the lane condition ...
This is correct. Though it is not necessarily true for all of the time.
And there may be some correalation between pin action and ball revolution-rate. But for the most part, pin action at the pin deck is determined by the angle of ball entry for a hook bowler --> that's the entire reason for inventing the hook ball.
The optimum entry position is at the 17½ board (for right-handers; reverse for lefties). I have long forgotten the optimum angle of entry, perhaps someone who does remember may chip in. I think its something in the region of 66 degrees at that board position. This angle was impossible for a straight ball to attain (not the board, the angle) without bowling FROM the adjacent lane, which is clearly illegal and not possible. Hence, the hook ball was invented.
Pin action is dependant on a LOT of other elements such as velocity, ball mass, blah blah blah. But the main two are entry angle and position.
The "perfect", textbook strike doesn't rely on pins riccocheting off the walls anyway. Strikes with messengers taking out the standing pin(s) are theoretically wrong, and just plain lucky. Haha -
i was thinking...i saw someone do "reverse hook"
is it good? -
u mean hook with alot of feedback that makes it travels in the opposite direction?Originally posted by StarPuppy:i was thinking...i saw someone do "reverse hook"
is it good?
something like a right hander "hooking" like a left hander ar?? -
Hey Stellazio,
How do you get your signature to be animated? Are you a paying member of the forums? I can't even an image in my sig.
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I think there are several "shapes" of a hook. From low to extreme:
I --> J --> L --> 7
Personally, I have no favourite "shape". Since I have long realised that certain shots work better on certain lanes and are reliant on the oil that has been laid down.
My favourite is the heavy ball that accelerates AFTER the break point. It can occur in any shape, but is usually accompanied by a sharp break angle. -
yep..i'm a p-member..Originally posted by harmzuay:Hey Stellazio,
How do you get your signature to be animated? Are you a paying member of the forums? I can't even an image in my sig.
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I think there are several "shapes" of a hook. From low to extreme:
I --> J --> L --> 7
Personally, I have no favourite "shape". Since I have long realised that certain shots work better on certain lanes and are reliant on the oil that has been laid down.
My favourite is the heavy ball that accelerates AFTER the break point. It can occur in any shape, but is usually accompanied by a sharp break angle. -
reverse hook is technically wrong, not recommended. But if it gets you high scores and you are comfortable with it...may not necessary need to change maOriginally posted by StarPuppy:i was thinking...i saw someone do "reverse hook"
is it good? -
Originally posted by stellazio:ya la the one that resemble the letter J..
ur ball driller son is a national bowler..does the shop happens to be at kim seng plaza? -
ya, there is a optimum strike spot, and a optimum strike angle, but as wat i hav said, this is the old school precision bowling. ie, need to be very accurate, and very consistant for release. In fact i really find it very difficult to repeat even 5 exact shots for myself. That is why perfect game is a rarity in the past. however recently there seem to be much more perfect games going on...the reason?? because bowlers become more accurate?? i dun think so. but rather i think, because of this power bowling theory that boost more pin actions. resulting in easier strikes....just my point of view la...Originally posted by harmzuay:And there may be some correalation between pin action and ball revolution-rate. But for the most part, pin action at the pin deck is determined by the angle of ball entry for a hook bowler --> that's the entire reason for inventing the hook ball.
The optimum entry position is at the 17½ board (for right-handers; reverse for lefties). I have long forgotten the optimum angle of entry, perhaps someone who does remember may chip in. I think its something in the region of 66 degrees at that board position. This angle was impossible for a straight ball to attain (not the board, the angle) without bowling FROM the adjacent lane, which is clearly illegal and not possible. Hence, the hook ball was invented.
Pin action is dependant on a LOT of other elements such as velocity, ball mass, blah blah blah. But the main two are entry angle and position.
The "perfect", textbook strike doesn't rely on pins riccocheting off the walls anyway. Strikes with messengers taking out the standing pin(s) are theoretically wrong, and just plain lucky. Haha -
I think there are more perfect games in more recent times not because of greater pin action, but newer technology that has helped any Tom, Dick, or Harry throw a hook ball.
It used to be the realm of the elites, who can play a heavy ball and hook it. Names such as Dick Weber, Mark Roth... ... were legends before their time because they could do what few other professional bowlers could - hook the ball. Not many more could. And not many people can throw 12 strikes in a row back when most shots were straight. This is why Walter Ray Williams was so unusual because he could carry with a straight shot.
These days, the balls basically hook themselves. And the bowler gets access to the once-exclusive optimum strike angle, and along with that have improved carry and a higher strike probability. Its as simple as that, I feel.
I think if we all went back to the equivalent of the equipment available back then - using hard rubber / plain plastic balls - we'll see that even the most consistent of bowlers can't strike 12 in a row. Heck, even our spare balls these days are more "hookable" to the plastic balls everyone used back then.
Sad to say, but nowadays anyone who has a powerful coverstock can hook the ball from gutter-to-gutter simply by chucking it. Doesn't even have to be a proper shot. -
orh..NP bowling coach..and many others as well..Originally posted by enginboi:
i know his son once bowled a perfect game during the league.. -
his son got 4 or 5 perfect game under his belt, and he is only 19. envy envy...haha....he used to play conventional hook when he was young, then change to spinner during sec and finally power bowling at poly.Originally posted by stellazio:orh..NP bowling coach..and many others as well..
i know his son once bowled a perfect game during the league.. -
haha, that is kinda true, thou i did not use a rubber ball before, but nowadays bowling balls are sorta in auto transmission mode i guess. haha...when the lane is dry, even my spare ball can hook 15 to 20 boards...hahaOriginally posted by harmzuay:I think there are more perfect games in more recent times not because of greater pin action, but newer technology that has helped any Tom, Dick, or Harry throw a hook ball.
It used to be the realm of the elites, who can play a heavy ball and hook it. Names such as Dick Weber, Mark Roth... ... were legends before their time because they could do what few other professional bowlers could - hook the ball. Not many more could. And not many people can throw 12 strikes in a row back when most shots were straight. This is why Walter Ray Williams was so unusual because he could carry with a straight shot.
These days, the balls basically hook themselves. And the bowler gets access to the once-exclusive optimum strike angle, and along with that have improved carry and a higher strike probability. Its as simple as that, I feel.
I think if we all went back to the equivalent of the equipment available back then - using hard rubber / plain plastic balls - we'll see that even the most consistent of bowlers can't strike 12 in a row. Heck, even our spare balls these days are more "hookable" to the plastic balls everyone used back then.
Sad to say, but nowadays anyone who has a powerful coverstock can hook the ball from gutter-to-gutter simply by chucking it. Doesn't even have to be a proper shot.