Form and Formless (相与无相）

• An Eternal Now

  9 Feb 11, 09:03

  Originally posted by Xprobe:

  Hi xprobe, contrary to your claims i find that many people in this forum are genuine practitioners who are improving in their practice and realization so certainly thwse discussions are far from far from empty rtalk or waste of time, though i cannot speak for every single person .Also, the TS has geuine intentions to learn how to practice the teachings. im sure, due to his keenness in learning, that fruits will bear from his practice. if one doesnt know but doesnt ask, then to progress will be very difficult.
• An Eternal Now

  9 Feb 11, 09:04

  pardon my spellings - hard to type from my phone
• Dawnfirstlight

  9 Feb 11, 14:31

  Originally posted by Xprobe:

  我�觉你们都他妈的都是空谈，自己�修行，全部都是嘴巴到披岸的空谈之辈，浪费人身。

  虽然这论�是�扬佛法的平�，这几年�你们他妈的都没进步过。呜乎唉��

  人身难得今己得

  佛法难闻今以闻

  此生��今生度

  更�何生度此生

  自己有没有修行，有没有进步，�有自己知�。空谈是�能到彼岸的。我在这论�学了很多，也�AEN和其他网�学了�少。希望AEN和其他佛�能多多�表和分享他们学佛的心得。至少他们激�我去进一步的了解佛法而�是��留在念佛。我相信会有更多佛�在这论��益。

  至少我们ä¸�会“他妈的，他妈的”å�«ï¼Œå“ªé‡Œæ²¡æœ‰è¿›æ­¥ï¼�

   

• sinweiy

  9 Feb 11, 17:08

  "如鱼饮水,冷暖自知"。

• An Eternal Now

  11 Feb 11, 22:35

  Dawnfirstlight is a sincere practitioner... hence I will write something in Chinese just as a sharing.

• Xprobe

  12 Feb 11, 00:12

  Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:

  自己有没有修行，有没有进步，�有自己知�。空谈是�能到彼岸的。我在这论�学了很多，也�AEN和其他网�学了�少。希望AEN和其他佛�能多多�表和分享他们学佛的心得。至少他们激�我去进一步的了解佛法而�是��留在念佛。我相信会有更多佛�在这论��益。

  至少我们ä¸�会“他妈的，他妈的”å�«ï¼Œå“ªé‡Œæ²¡æœ‰è¿›æ­¥ï¼�

   

  尊贵的师兄，您å�ˆä½•å°�没堕入“他妈的”之相呢？

  既然此论å�›ä¹‹ä¸»é¢˜åœ¨ä¸Žç›¸ä¸Žæ— ç›¸ï¼Œæ£’å–�一下å�ˆæœ‰ä½•å¦¨ï¼Ÿæ‰€è°“çš„”他妈的“å�ªä¸�过是个诱因，好让å�Œä¿®ä»¬äº†è§£ä¸–间法的功用，了解以相修无相。仅此而已。莫怪ï¼� 莫怪ï¼�

  以此绵力，点化众生，师兄您也别�怪了。

  �愿师兄佛�早�，乘愿归�，�祥如�，广结善缘。

• 2009novice

  12 Feb 11, 00:53

  Originally posted by Xprobe:

  尊贵的师兄，您å�ˆä½•å°�没堕入“他妈的”之相呢？

  既然此论å�›ä¹‹ä¸»é¢˜åœ¨ä¸Žç›¸ä¸Žæ— ç›¸ï¼Œæ£’å–�一下å�ˆæœ‰ä½•å¦¨ï¼Ÿæ‰€è°“çš„”他妈的“å�ªä¸�过是个诱因，好让å�Œä¿®ä»¬äº†è§£ä¸–间法的功用，了解以相修无相。仅此而已。莫怪ï¼�莫怪ï¼�

  以此绵力，点化众生，师兄您也别�怪了。

  �愿师兄佛�早�，乘愿归�，�祥如�，广结善缘。

  
  oh.... u break "Right Speech" using t m d

  是时候该打�股了

  lol

• Xprobe

  12 Feb 11, 01:04

  Originally posted by 2009novice:

  
  oh.... u break "Right Speech" using t m d

  是时候该打�股了

  lol

  禅宗本æ�¥å°±è¢«èª‰ä¸ºå¤§å¯†å®—，旨在令众生顿悟之用，”è‚®è„�“点å�ˆä½•å¦¨ï¼Ÿ

  干干净净的也�以，慢慢��

• Dawnfirstlight

  12 Feb 11, 08:33

  Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

  Dawnfirstlight is a sincere practitioner... hence I will write something in Chinese just as a sharing.

  Thanks AEN.

• Dawnfirstlight

  12 Feb 11, 08:35

  Originally posted by Xprobe:

  尊贵的师兄，您å�ˆä½•å°�没堕入“他妈的”之相呢？

  既然此论å�›ä¹‹ä¸»é¢˜åœ¨ä¸Žç›¸ä¸Žæ— ç›¸ï¼Œæ£’å–�一下å�ˆæœ‰ä½•å¦¨ï¼Ÿæ‰€è°“çš„”他妈的“å�ªä¸�过是个诱因，好让å�Œä¿®ä»¬äº†è§£ä¸–间法的功用，了解以相修无相。仅此而已。莫怪ï¼�莫怪ï¼�

  以此绵力，点化众生，师兄您也别�怪了。

  �愿师兄佛�早�，乘愿归�，�祥如�，广结善缘。

  谢谢�大家互相勉励�阿弥陀佛�

• An Eternal Now

  12 Feb 11, 14:58

  �个人都有相。而这个相是这一身��地建立起�的。比如我是一个佛教徒，我是一
  个修行人，这也是我对我自己建立的一个‘相’。如果我执ç�€è¿™ä¸ª‘修行人’的相，
  那么如果人家批评我修行ä¸�好，那么我就会ä¸�高兴。如果我本æ�¥å°±æ²¡æœ‰ä¸€ä¸ª‘我是
  修行人’çš„‘我相’，那你怎么批评我的修行也都ä¸�è¦�ç´§å�—。
  
  我们这一身建立了好多好多相-在家里我们�是�一个相，在佛堂�是�一个，跟朋
  å�‹åœ¨ä¸€èµ·æ—¶å�ˆæ˜¯å�¦ä¸€ä¸ªã€‚而因为有了一个‘我’的立场，就产生了‘我’å’Œ‘ä»–’
  的一ç§�分别对立。我们对别人也æ¸�æ¸�地产生了一ç§�‘相’对你的亲戚，对你的朋å�‹ï¼Œ
  å�Œäº‹éƒ½äº§ç”Ÿäº†ä¸€ç§�‘相’-他这几年怎么对待我，我把它记起æ�¥ï¼Œè€Œå¯¹ä»–生起了一ç§�
  ��，一��象，他是一个好人，�人，怎么样的人，这都是相。而我们对别人怎
  么互动也跟我们对别人的相有关。
  
  动而因为我们有‘我相’，我们有‘人相’，就有分别，争斗，战争。比如我是巴
  å‹’æ–¯å�¦äººï¼Œä½ æ˜¯ä¼Šæ–¯å…°äººï¼Œæˆ‘看了就讨厌。这是‘相’的问题。如果我é�¢å¯¹äººæ²¡æœ‰
  执ç�€åœ¨äºŽç›¸ä¸Šï¼Œæˆ‘没有去想‘他是伊斯兰人，他是æ�¶äºº’等等-我们都是人å�—，对人
  都是平等，没有分别，哪�的战争。
  
  ä¸�è¦�看别的国家或宗教啦，我们对人与人之间的纷争都跟我们对‘相’的执ç�€æœ‰å…³ã€‚
  
  
  所以我们修行，对人对事对物都没有执�在相上。看到一朵花，我没有产生一个
  ‘花相’-我ä¸�去分别这是什么什么花，喜欢或ä¸�喜欢，ä¸�跟这朵花对立分别，我å�ª
  是看�这朵花-它鲜艳的颜色，它的形状，看得清清楚楚。而在看花的当下，因为没
  有分别，æ¸�æ¸�就体会到本æ�¥å°±æ²¡æœ‰‘能’，‘所’，‘内’，‘外’，‘我’，
  ‘它’的分别。看花时，我就是花，没有能è§�者和所è§�之境。所以整个宇宙就是你
  的真身-所以�代的禅师�会说，"��翠竹尽是法身,��黄花无�般若"，都是法
  性，佛性，自性，宇宙本体。
  
  说起æ�¥ï¼Œå¯¹èŠ±æ— ç›¸è¿˜å¯¹äººæ— ç›¸æ¯”较简å�•ã€‚但æ¸�æ¸�地，我们学会‘无相看花’，也就
  æ¸�æ¸�会‘无相看人’。You will learn to encounter people through Pure Presence rather than an image you have about him/her. ä½ å°±ä¸�会有‘看到他就讨厌’çš„é‚£ç§�执ç�€-因为没有相å�—，看
  的都是平等法性，看众生都是佛��-因为佛性本�平等�。
  
  "有相修行百�劫，无相修行刹那间。" - 什么是有相修行呢? 就比如我刚�讲的，
  ‘修行人的相’，这也è¦�èˆ�离。å†�æ�¥ï¼Œæˆ‘修行时没有执ç�€‘修行之相’- 比如，我
  行善布施，å�šäº†å°±ç®—了，ä¸�去多生一个想, 没有一直执ç�€æˆ‘å�šäº†ä»€ä¹ˆä»€ä¹ˆã€‚这样æ‰�能å�šåˆ°é‡‘刚金所讲的‘三轮体空’
  - 没有能施ã€�所施之物ã€�å�—施者, 没有我ã€�人ã€�众生ã€�寿者相等等。这个跟我刚æ‰�讲的‘无能所’有关。没有一个‘我’的立场，没有一个‘行者’，没有一个‘能è§�者’，也就没有‘所è§�之物’，‘所行之物’，‘所施之物’等等。所以我在我写过的文章有讲到: "虽然身心脱è�½ï¼Œèƒ½æ‰€å�Œäº¡ï¼Œä½†ä¸€åˆ‡å¹³å‡¡çš„生活处事还是å�Œæ ·åœ°ç»§ç»­, å�ªæ˜¯æ²¡æœ‰ä¸€ä¸ª“行者”在å�šï¼Œä¹Ÿæ²¡æœ‰ä¸€ä¸ª“觉者”在看，但一切清清楚楚，了了分明，一切æ�¥åŽ»éš�缘自显。"
  
  一切�缘自然地�，但缘尽当了，�留痕迹，所修所行就�在水中画画，�画
  �消，无�毫痕迹画画。一切��的。
  
  所以佛陀讲的‘诸æ�¶èŽ«ä½œï¼Œä¼—善奉行，自净其æ„�，是诸佛教’çš„‘自净其æ„�’ä¸�是
  åƒ�一般人以为‘ä¸�去想å��的，想好的就是’这么简å�•ï¼Œè€Œæ˜¯è¦�念念都无相，念念都
  解脱，�管是�念善念都�净化，都�能执�。
  
  �然我们修行百�劫还�是在修一些人天�，�也会有了完的一天，所以这样修是
  永远无法解脱。
  
  你当下能够无相，当下就能超越三界，ä¸�须修这个那个啦。但是è¦�达到‘无相’ä¸�
  �是一�修行的�就，而是�有所体悟。如我在我写的文章里讲的:
  
  " 有很多人以为“无我”是一ç§�修行的æˆ�就，比如修法修到没有“我相”的执ç�€ï¼Œ
  当然这也很é‡�è¦�，这是一ç§�修行的æˆ�就，但佛陀在这部ç»�所讲的“无我”并ä¸�是一
  ç§�æˆ�就，而是一个“法å�°” ─ 对于一切法本æ�¥å°±æ— æˆ‘，本æ�¥å°±æ— èƒ½è§‰è€…/所觉的对
  立，无è§�者/å�¬è€…/行者! 在å�¬å£°éŸ³æ—¶ä¸€ç›´ä»¥æ�¥å°±å�ªæœ‰å£°éŸ³ï¼Œæ²¡æœ‰é—»è€…，没有“我”，
  本æ�¥å°±å¦‚此，也ä¸�用去“消ç�­”一个“我”，因为本æ�¥å°±æ²¡æœ‰ä¸€ä¸ª“我”å�¯ä»¥æ¶ˆç�­ã€‚
   è¿™æ˜¯è¦�体悟出æ�¥çš„，ä¸�是一ç§�修行达到的æˆ�就或境界。如果没有真正的体悟，无论
  如何修也无法达到自如。所以“无我”ä¸�是一ç§�æˆ�就或境界，法本无我，本就如此。
  "

  三轮体空也是�有所体悟-�是说修行�达到三轮体空的境界，而是本�三轮就是空的-本�就没有能施�所施之物��施者。你彻底地看破了这�相，你看到这些相都是完全虚��存在的，所以你自然就�会迷与这些相。如果有所体悟，自然就无相。

  '无我'，'三轮体空'，'诸法空相'，都�是�就，也�是境界，而是实相，需�你去体悟。They are not achievements, or states to be experienced, they are facts of reality to be realized. 很多人都误会了，了解的人很少。这个你需�了解。

  你现在能修的å�ªæ˜¯‘对花无相’，‘对人无相’çš„é‚£ç§�‘无相’，但如果è¦�真正脱离三心，
  四相，达到三轮体空，这需è¦�‘æ‚Ÿ’。

• An Eternal Now

  12 Feb 11, 15:55

  No Trace

  (from Part 2 - “Right Attitude” - of “Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind” by Shunryu Suzuki – Weatherhill, 1970)

  --o0o--

   

  When we practice zazen our mind is calm and quite simple. But usually our mind is very busy and complicated, and it is difficult to be concentrated on what we are doing.  This is because before we act we think, and this thinking leaves some trace. Our activity is shadowed by some preconceived idea. The thinking not only leaves some trace or shadow, but also gives us many other notions about other activities and things. These traces and notions make our mind very complicated. When we do something with a quite simple, clear mind, we have no notion or shadows, and our activity is strong and straightforward. But when we do something with a complicated mind, in relation to other things or people, or society, our activity becomes very complex.

   

  Most people have a double or triple notion in one activity. There is a saying, “To catch two birds with one stone”. That is what people usually try to do. Because they want to catch too many birds they find it difficult to be concentrated on one activity, and they may end up not catching any birds at all! That kind of thinking always leaves its shadow on their activity. The shadow is not actually the thinking itself. Of course it is often necessary to think or prepare before we act. But right thinking does not leave any shadow. Thinking which leaves traces comes out of your relative, confused mind. Relative mind is the mind which sets itself in relation to other things, thus limiting itself. It is this small mind that creates gaining ideas and leaves traces of itself.

   

  If you leave a trace of your thinking on your activity, you will be attached to the trace. For instance, you may say, “This is what I have done!” But actually it is not so. In your recollection you may say, “I did such and such a thing in some certain way,” but actually that is never exactly what happened. When you think in this way you limit the actual experience of what you have done. So if you attach to the idea of what you have done, you are involved in selfish ideas.

   

  Often we think what we have done is good, but it may not actually be so. When we become old we are often very proud of what we have done. When others listen to someone proudly telling something which he has done, they will feel funny, because they know his recollection is one-sided. They know that what he has told them is not exactly what he did. Moreover, if he is proud of what he did, that pride will create some problem for him. Repeating his recollections in this way, his personality will be twisted more and more, until he becomes quite a disagreeable, stubborn fellow. This is an example of leaving a trace of one’s thinking. We should not forget what we did, but it should be without an extra trace. To leave a trace is not the same thing as to remember something. It is necessary to remember what we have done, but we should not become attached to what we have done in some special sense. What we call “attachment” is just these traces of our thought and activity.

   

  In order not to leave any traces, when you do something, you should do it with your whole body and mind; you should be concentrated on what you do. You should do it completely, like a good bonfire. You should not be a smoky fire. You should burn yourself completely. If you do not burn yourself completely, a trace of yourself will be left in what you do. You will have something remaining which is not completely burned out. Zen activity is activity which is completely burned out, with nothing remaining but ashes. This is the goal of our practice. That is what Dogen meant when he said, “Ashes do not come back to firewood.” Ash is ash. Ash should be completely ash. The firewood should be firewood. When this kind of activity takes place, one activity covers everything.

   

  So our practice is not a matter of one hour or two hours, or one day or one year. If you practice zazen with your whole body and mind, even for a moment, that is zazen. So moment after moment you should devote yourself to your practice. You should not have any remains after you do something. But this does not mean to forget all about it. If you understand this point, all the dualistic thinking and all the problems of life will vanish.

   

  When you practice Zen you become one with Zen. There is no you and no zazen. When you bow, there is no Buddha and no you. One complete bowing takes place, that is all. This is Nirvana. When Buddha transmitted our practice to Maha Kashyapa, he just picked up a flower with a smile. Only Maha Kashyapa understood what he meant; no one else understood. We do not know if this is a historical event or not, but it means something. It is a demonstration of our traditional way. Some activity which covers everything is true activity, and the secret of this activity is transmitted from Buddha to us. This is Zen practice, not some teaching taught by Buddha, or some rules of life set up by him. The teaching or the rules should be changed according to the place, or according to the people who observe them, but the secret of this practice cannot be changed. It is always true.

   

  So for us there is no other way to live in this world. I think this is quite true; and this is easy to accept, easy to understand, and easy to practice. If you compare the kind of life based on this practice with what is happening in this world, or in human society, you will find out just how valuable the truth Buddha left us is. It is quite simple, and practice is quite simple. But even so, we should not ignore it; its great value must be discovered. Usually when it is so simple we say, “Oh, I know that! It is quite simple, everyone knows that.” But if we do not find its value it means nothing. It is the same as not knowing. The more you understand culture, the more you will understand how true and how necessary this teaching is. Instead of only criticizing your culture, you should devote your mind and body to practicing this simple way. Then society and culture will grow out of you. It may be all right for the people who are too attached to their culture to be critical. Their critical attitude means they are coming back to the simple truth left by Buddha. But our approach is just to be concentrated on a simple basic practice and a simple basic understanding of life. There should be no traces in our activity. We should not attach to some fancy ideas or to some beautiful things. We should not seek for something good. The truth is always near at hand, within your reach.

• geis

  12 Feb 11, 18:19

  Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

  No Trace

  (from Part 2 - “Right Attitude” - of “Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind” by Shunryu Suzuki – Weatherhill, 1970)

  --o0o--

   

  When we practice zazen our mind is calm and quite simple. But usually our mind is very busy and complicated, and it is difficult to be concentrated on what we are doing.  This is because before we act we think, and this thinking leaves some trace. Our activity is shadowed by some preconceived idea. The thinking not only leaves some trace or shadow, but also gives us many other notions about other activities and things. These traces and notions make our mind very complicated. When we do something with a quite simple, clear mind, we have no notion or shadows, and our activity is strong and straightforward. But when we do something with a complicated mind, in relation to other things or people, or society, our activity becomes very complex.

   

  Most people have a double or triple notion in one activity. There is a saying, “To catch two birds with one stone”. That is what people usually try to do. Because they want to catch too many birds they find it difficult to be concentrated on one activity, and they may end up not catching any birds at all! That kind of thinking always leaves its shadow on their activity. The shadow is not actually the thinking itself. Of course it is often necessary to think or prepare before we act. But right thinking does not leave any shadow. Thinking which leaves traces comes out of your relative, confused mind. Relative mind is the mind which sets itself in relation to other things, thus limiting itself. It is this small mind that creates gaining ideas and leaves traces of itself.

   

  If you leave a trace of your thinking on your activity, you will be attached to the trace. For instance, you may say, “This is what I have done!” But actually it is not so. In your recollection you may say, “I did such and such a thing in some certain way,” but actually that is never exactly what happened. When you think in this way you limit the actual experience of what you have done. So if you attach to the idea of what you have done, you are involved in selfish ideas.

   

  Often we think what we have done is good, but it may not actually be so. When we become old we are often very proud of what we have done. When others listen to someone proudly telling something which he has done, they will feel funny, because they know his recollection is one-sided. They know that what he has told them is not exactly what he did. Moreover, if he is proud of what he did, that pride will create some problem for him. Repeating his recollections in this way, his personality will be twisted more and more, until he becomes quite a disagreeable, stubborn fellow. This is an example of leaving a trace of one’s thinking. We should not forget what we did, but it should be without an extra trace. To leave a trace is not the same thing as to remember something. It is necessary to remember what we have done, but we should not become attached to what we have done in some special sense. What we call “attachment” is just these traces of our thought and activity.

   

  In order not to leave any traces, when you do something, you should do it with your whole body and mind; you should be concentrated on what you do. You should do it completely, like a good bonfire. You should not be a smoky fire. You should burn yourself completely. If you do not burn yourself completely, a trace of yourself will be left in what you do. You will have something remaining which is not completely burned out. Zen activity is activity which is completely burned out, with nothing remaining but ashes. This is the goal of our practice. That is what Dogen meant when he said, “Ashes do not come back to firewood.” Ash is ash. Ash should be completely ash. The firewood should be firewood. When this kind of activity takes place, one activity covers everything.

   

  So our practice is not a matter of one hour or two hours, or one day or one year. If you practice zazen with your whole body and mind, even for a moment, that is zazen. So moment after moment you should devote yourself to your practice. You should not have any remains after you do something. But this does not mean to forget all about it. If you understand this point, all the dualistic thinking and all the problems of life will vanish.

   

  When you practice Zen you become one with Zen. There is no you and no zazen. When you bow, there is no Buddha and no you. One complete bowing takes place, that is all. This is Nirvana. When Buddha transmitted our practice to Maha Kashyapa, he just picked up a flower with a smile. Only Maha Kashyapa understood what he meant; no one else understood. We do not know if this is a historical event or not, but it means something. It is a demonstration of our traditional way. Some activity which covers everything is true activity, and the secret of this activity is transmitted from Buddha to us. This is Zen practice, not some teaching taught by Buddha, or some rules of life set up by him. The teaching or the rules should be changed according to the place, or according to the people who observe them, but the secret of this practice cannot be changed. It is always true.

   

  So for us there is no other way to live in this world. I think this is quite true; and this is easy to accept, easy to understand, and easy to practice. If you compare the kind of life based on this practice with what is happening in this world, or in human society, you will find out just how valuable the truth Buddha left us is. It is quite simple, and practice is quite simple. But even so, we should not ignore it; its great value must be discovered. Usually when it is so simple we say, “Oh, I know that! It is quite simple, everyone knows that.” But if we do not find its value it means nothing. It is the same as not knowing. The more you understand culture, the more you will understand how true and how necessary this teaching is. Instead of only criticizing your culture, you should devote your mind and body to practicing this simple way. Then society and culture will grow out of you. It may be all right for the people who are too attached to their culture to be critical. Their critical attitude means they are coming back to the simple truth left by Buddha. But our approach is just to be concentrated on a simple basic practice and a simple basic understanding of life. There should be no traces in our activity. We should not attach to some fancy ideas or to some beautiful things. We should not seek for something good. The truth is always near at hand, within your reach.

   

  so coincident, im on this part now. :)

• An Eternal Now

  12 Feb 11, 18:27

  Originally posted by geis:

   

  so coincident, im on this part now. :)

  Synchronicities happen when you practice.

  I was writing down what to write to dawn in camp... writing about not leaving traces. On nights out, I went to the library, saw Zen mind book, pick it up, randomly flipped and land on this chapter. Then I took note.

• geis

  12 Feb 11, 18:38

  Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

  Synchronicities happen when you practice.

  I was writing down what to write to dawn in camp... writing about not leaving traces. On nights out, I went to the library, saw Zen mind book, pick it up, randomly flipped and land on this chapter. Then I took note.

  yeah, very much agree with this.

  the relevant teachings will always arise when one is practicing from my experience. patience :)