Form and Formless (相与无相）

• Dawnfirstlight

  1 Feb 11, 14:03

  Recently I've heard of the below wisdom verse :

  有相修行百�劫，

  无相修行刹那间。

  Though I can say I understand what the Diamond Sutra and Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch  are about, but when it comes to real life, it is difficult to put into practice.

  How a person who is not enlightened yet see through form and formless ? (如何�视相与无相， 在生活中起作用？）

   

   

• realization

  1 Feb 11, 14:14

  Eeps, can you translate the Chinese?  I don't understand... especially the verses.

• Dawnfirstlight

  1 Feb 11, 14:22

  Originally posted by realization:

  Eeps, can you translate the Chinese?  I don't understand... especially the verses.

  
  Ermm, my English translation is not so good. If someone can translate better , please do so. Roughly the meaning is like that :

  有相修行百�劫，(With form, one takes many life times to practice)

  无相修行刹那间。(Without form, one takes a moment to practice)

   

• sinweiy

  1 Feb 11, 14:57

  Both the Lankavatara and Esoteric Adornment Sutras Stated:

  "It is better to be attached to Existence, though the attachment may be as big as Mount Sumeru, than to be attached to Emptiness, though the attachment may be as small as a mustard seed." 

  it's careful to let people know that Emptiness is not nothingness. as the life span of formless realms is very very long.

  /\

• Dawnfirstlight

  1 Feb 11, 16:09

  Originally posted by sinweiy:

  Both the Lankavatara and Esoteric Adornment Sutras Stated:

  "It is better to be attached to Existence, though the attachment may be as big as Mount Sumeru, than to be attached to Emptiness, though the attachment may be as small as a mustard seed." 

  it's careful to let people know that Emptiness is not nothingness. as the life span of formless realms is very very long.

  /\

  Yeah, that is something I learnt recently about formless. Form is limited, formless is unlimited. Actually I don't quite understand till the shifu said for instance a container which is empty will have space to contain more things than a container which is already full. I find Master æ˜Ÿäº‘ will use many simple examples to tell us the actual meaning of formless. People like me can only understand if shifu uses examples like the container or else I will  keep thinking how can formless be unlimited.

   å¿ƒæœ‰æ‰€ä½� is limited, 心无所ä½�，处处是家, everywhere is your home.

• sinweiy

  1 Feb 11, 16:38

  or i remember we draw a circle.

  

  the line is the form and the inside and outside space is the formless. without the space/formless, we also don't have the circle/form.

• sinweiy

  1 Feb 11, 16:47

  anyway 佛陀曰:"�所有相皆是虚望"。

  /\

• sinweiy

  1 Feb 11, 17:04

  AEN's teacher:-

  http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol6no3e.htm

  9. I do not have the time to cultivate; what should I do?
  
  Cultivate amid your actions.动中修
  
  Let me tell you about a method of cultivation; it is called “cultivate amid your actions”. This method of cultivation does not require time and also does not waste any time. Using this method you may cultivate at any place and any time.
  
  
  
  10. What is to “cultivate amid actions”? Is there any difference between this and “cultivate amid tranquillity”?
  
  Jen Chen Buddhism advocates cultivating amid our actions.
  
  To cultivate while in tranquillity means not doing anything else besides practising sitting meditation, prostrating before the Buddha, or reciting the sutras. Indeed, some practitioners of this method of cultivation can practise sitting meditation for an uninterrupted stretch of several days at a time.
  
  Jen Chen Buddhism advocates that people cultivate amid our actions. The times have changed. Because of the need to earn a livelihood everyone has to work; everyone is working and is constantly engaged in some kind of activity. However, even though we are busy and in action, we also have to cultivate. It should not be that because we are busy doing something, therefore we do not cultivate.
  
  No matter how busy we are, we cannot be as busy as Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva (Guan Yin Pu-sa). Just imagine that each day in this world there are so many people seeking Guan Yin Pu-sa’s help to deliver them from their woes. Guan Yin Pu-sa is very compassionate and merciful and he responds to their cries for help. He is indeed very busy. Does is it mean that because Guan Yin Pu-sa is so busy, he does not cultivate? As a matter of fact, he is also cultivating while he is attending to cries for help. We cultivate while we are in action and in the midst of our bustles. That is emulating Guan Yin Pu-sa’s cultivation.
  
  We all need to talk. To cultivate amid our actions means that we should use soothing words in our speech, words that carry compassion, love, encouragement and the Buddha-dharma. In this way we are cultivating in the midst of our actions.
  
  Whatever we do in the course of our daily life, we remain aware that we do not engage in illusions or day dreaming; and we constantly uphold brightness and illumine awareness. This is cultivating while in action.
  
  For people who do not know about cultivation, they are either scolding other people or gossiping whenever they open their mouth. On the other hand, for a person who cultivates, regardless of how busy he is, he is sensible in whatever he says and in accord with the Buddha-dharma. He does not engage in lying, slander, harsh speech and idle speech. There are numerous examples of cultivating while in action and this is just one of them.
  
  /\

• Fcukpap

  1 Feb 11, 22:48

  to put it in human terms....its the meaning u attached to it which gives its form...was it rose or the symbol of love?

  

• Fcukpap

  1 Feb 11, 22:50

  u give life its meanings

• unclerexy

  1 Feb 11, 23:04

  what if, i mean what if, the sutra texts were printed in white colour on white paper.what meaning is there when dharma and the mode of practice are the same as non-dharma and non-practice.

  
  

  dharma practice is black, printed on white. what is fundamentally white, if you add dharma or blackness to it, dharma arises.
  

• Fcukpap

  1 Feb 11, 23:28

  when light casts on its shadows....truth reveals in its most unexpected forms ... u may or may not see its grandeur when it is already right before u...many times it surpasses us

  Love 

• Amitayus48

  2 Feb 11, 08:51

  Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:

  
  Ermm, my English translation is not so good. If someone can translate better , please do so. Roughly the meaning is like that :

  有相修行百�劫，(With form, one takes many life times to practice)

  无相修行刹那间。(Without form, one takes a moment to practice)

   

  IMHO, the translation is not as wholesome - the first, is practice without knowing truth, while the second is no practice cos it is dwelling in the truth :D

  I am fortunate to have chanced upon a person who got this fortune-stick of Guan Yin, it really enlightening, is abt �宗认� number 45 :

  观音�签第四�五签 《�人：�宗认�》 上签
  
  诗曰：温柔自�胜刚强 积善之门大�昌 若是有人�此� 宛如止渴��浆
  解曰：天地有感 应验�常 佛神护佑 得之莫忘

  Namo Amitabah

• An Eternal Now

  2 Feb 11, 15:47

  Originally posted by sinweiy:

   

  AEN's teacher:-

  http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol6no3e.htm

  9. I do not have the time to cultivate; what should I do?
  
  Cultivate amid your actions.动中修
  
  Let me tell you about a method of cultivation; it is called “cultivate amid your actions”. This method of cultivation does not require time and also does not waste any time. Using this method you may cultivate at any place and any time.
  
  
  
  10. What is to “cultivate amid actions”? Is there any difference between this and “cultivate amid tranquillity”?
  
  Jen Chen Buddhism advocates cultivating amid our actions.
  
  To cultivate while in tranquillity means not doing anything else besides practising sitting meditation, prostrating before the Buddha, or reciting the sutras. Indeed, some practitioners of this method of cultivation can practise sitting meditation for an uninterrupted stretch of several days at a time.
  
  Jen Chen Buddhism advocates that people cultivate amid our actions. The times have changed. Because of the need to earn a livelihood everyone has to work; everyone is working and is constantly engaged in some kind of activity. However, even though we are busy and in action, we also have to cultivate. It should not be that because we are busy doing something, therefore we do not cultivate.
  
  No matter how busy we are, we cannot be as busy as Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva (Guan Yin Pu-sa). Just imagine that each day in this world there are so many people seeking Guan Yin Pu-sa’s help to deliver them from their woes. Guan Yin Pu-sa is very compassionate and merciful and he responds to their cries for help. He is indeed very busy. Does is it mean that because Guan Yin Pu-sa is so busy, he does not cultivate? As a matter of fact, he is also cultivating while he is attending to cries for help. We cultivate while we are in action and in the midst of our bustles. That is emulating Guan Yin Pu-sa’s cultivation.
  
  We all need to talk. To cultivate amid our actions means that we should use soothing words in our speech, words that carry compassion, love, encouragement and the Buddha-dharma. In this way we are cultivating in the midst of our actions.
  
  Whatever we do in the course of our daily life, we remain aware that we do not engage in illusions or day dreaming; and we constantly uphold brightness and illumine awareness. This is cultivating while in action.
  
  For people who do not know about cultivation, they are either scolding other people or gossiping whenever they open their mouth. On the other hand, for a person who cultivates, regardless of how busy he is, he is sensible in whatever he says and in accord with the Buddha-dharma. He does not engage in lying, slander, harsh speech and idle speech. There are numerous examples of cultivating while in action and this is just one of them.
  
  /\

  Ren Cheng does teach �中修, but also emphasizes the importance of 动中修. Ultimately we must attain 动�一如.

  Both practice can result in realization... for me, the initial glimpse of pure awareness happened during meditation, but the latter realization of anatta arose when I was moving.

• An Eternal Now

  2 Feb 11, 15:53

  Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:

  Recently I've heard of the below wisdom verse :

  有相修行百�劫，

  无相修行刹那间。

  Though I can say I understand what the Diamond Sutra and Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch  are about, but when it comes to real life, it is difficult to put into practice.

  How a person who is not enlightened yet see through form and formless ? (如何�视相与无相， 在生活中起作用？）

   

   

  Before enlightenment, you can only contemplate. You can only 观行一切相的空性, but you haven't attained the ability to 照�五蕴皆空. Only Bodhisattvas who entered the bhumis (登地��) and thus realized the two emptinesses (政悟人法二空) can 照�五蕴皆空.

  How to contemplate?

  See that everything that arises has no core and essence.

  
  If we observe thought and ask where does thought arise, how does it arise, what is ‘thought’ like. 'Thought' will reveal its nature is empty -- vividly present yet completely un-locatable. It is very important not to infer, think or conceptualise but feel with our entire being this ‘ungraspability’ and 'unlocatability'. It seems to reside 'somewhere' but there is no way to locate it. It is just an impression of somewhere "there" but never "there". Similarly “here-ness” and “now-ness” are merely impressions formed by sensations, aggregates of causes and conditions, nothing inherently ‘there’; equally empty like ‘selfness’.
  
  This ungraspable and unlocatable empty nature is not only peculiar to ‘thought’. All experiences or sensations are like that -- vividly present yet insubstantial, un-graspable, spontaneous, un-locatable.
  
  If we were to observe a red flower that is so vivid, clear and right in front us, the “redness” only appears to “belong” to the flower, it is in actuality not so. Vision of red does not arise in all animal species (dogs cannot perceive colours) nor is the “redness” an inherent attribute of the mind. If given a “quantum eyesight” to look into the atomic structure, there is similarly no attribute “redness” anywhere found, only almost complete space/void with no perceivable shapes and forms. Whatever appearances are dependently arisen, and hence is empty of any inherent existence or fixed attributes, shapes, form, or “redness” -- merely luminous yet empty, mere appearances without inherent/objective existence.
  
  Likewise when standing in front of a burning fire pit, the entire phenomena of ‘fire’, the burning heat, the whole sensation of ‘hotness’ that are so vividly present and seem so real but when examined they are also not inherently “there” -- merely dependently manifest whenever conditions are there. It is amazing how dualistic and inherent views have caged seamless experience in a who-where-when construct.

  ... (continued in http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html)

• An Eternal Now

  2 Feb 11, 15:59

  Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:

  Yeah, that is something I learnt recently about formless. Form is limited, formless is unlimited. Actually I don't quite understand till the shifu said for instance a container which is empty will have space to contain more things than a container which is already full. I find Master æ˜Ÿäº‘ will use many simple examples to tell us the actual meaning of formless. People like me can only understand if shifu uses examples like the container or else I will  keep thinking how can formless be unlimited.

   å¿ƒæœ‰æ‰€ä½� is limited, 心无所ä½�，处处是家, everywhere is your home.

  This metaphor only manage to describe the space-like characteristic of pure awareness. But this is the relative nature of mind, not the ultimate nature of mind which is its emptiness. Many mix them up. The relative, space-like nature of awareness is experienced even in the I AM phase. However, it is important to first have glimpse of pure awareness (the I AM phase), then proceed on to further insights like non-dual, Anatta and Emptiness.

  H.H.Dalai Lama:

  http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/07/happiness-karma-and-mind.html

  (Excerpt)

  Through the gates of the five sense organs a being sees, hears, smells, tastes and comes into contact with a host of external forms, objects and impressions. Let the form, sound, smell, taste, touch and mental events which are the relations of the six senses be shut off. When this is done the recollection of past events on which the mind tends to dwell will be completely discontinued and the flow of memory cut off. Similarly, plans for the future and contemplation of future action must not be allowed to arise. It is necessary to create a space in place of all such processes of thought if one is to empty the mind of all such processes of thought. Freed from all these processes there will remain a pure, clean, distinct and quiescent mind. Now let us examine what sort of characteristics constitute the mind when it has attained this stage. We surely do possess some thing called mind, but how are we to recognize its existence? The real and essential mind is what is to be found when the entire load of gross obstructions and aberrations (i.e. sense impressions, memories, etc.) has been cleared away. Discerning this aspect of real mind, we shall discover that, unlike external objects, its true nature is devoid of form or color; nor can we find any basis of truth for such false and deceptive notions as that mind originated from this or that, or that it will move from here to there, or that it is located in such-and-such a place. When it comes into contact with no object mind is like a vast, boundless void, or like a serene, illimitable ocean. When it encounters an object it at once has cognizance of it, like a mirror instantly reflecting a person who stands in front of it. The true nature of mind consists not only in taking clear cognizance of the object but also in communicating a concrete experience of that object to the one experiencing it.* Normally, our forms of sense cognition, such as eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, etc., perform their functions on external phenomena in a manner involving gross distortion. Knowledge resulting from sense cognition, being based on gross external phenomena, is also of a gross nature. When this type of gross stimulation is shut out, and when concrete experiences and clear cognizance arise from within, mind assumes the characteristics of infinite void similar to the infinitude of space. But this void is not to be taken as the true nature of mind. We have become so habituated to consciousness of the form and color of gross objects that, when we make concentrated introspection into the nature of mind, it is, as I have said, found to be a vast, limitless void free from any gross obscurity or other hindrances. Nevertheless, this does not mean that we have discerned the subtle, true nature of the mind. What has been explained above concerns the state of mind in relation to the concrete experience and clear cognizance by the mind which are its function, but it describes only the relative nature of mind.

  There are in addition several other aspects and states of mind. In other words, taking mind as the supreme basis, there are many attributes related to it. Just as an onion consists of layer upon layer that can be peeled away, so does every sort of object have a number of layers; and this is no less true of the nature of mind as explained here; it, too, has layer within layer, slate within state.

  All compounded things are subject to disintegration. Since experience and knowledge are impermanent and subject to disintegration, the mind, of which they are functions (nature), is not something that remains constant and eternal. From moment to moment it undergoes change and disintegration. This transience of mind is one aspect of its nature. However, as we have observed, its true nature has many aspects, including consciousness of concrete experience and cognizance of objects. Now let us make a further examination in order to grasp the meaning of the subtle essence of such a mind. Mind came into existence because of its own cause. To deny that the origination of mind is dependent on a cause, or to say that it is a designation given as a means of recognizing the nature of mind aggregates, is not correct. With our superficial observance, mind, which has concrete experience and clear cognizance as its nature, appears to be a powerful, independent, subjective, completely ruling entity. However, deeper analysis will reveal that this mind, possessing as it does the function of experience and cognizance, is not a self-created entity but Is dependent on other factors for its existence. Hence it depends on something other than itself. This non-independent quality of the mind substance is its true nature which in turn is the ultimate reality of the self.

   

• An Eternal Now

  2 Feb 11, 16:20

  Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:

  Recently I've heard of the below wisdom verse :

  有相修行百�劫，

  无相修行刹那间。

  Though I can say I understand what the Diamond Sutra and Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch  are about, but when it comes to real life, it is difficult to put into practice.

  How a person who is not enlightened yet see through form and formless ? (如何�视相与无相， 在生活中起作用？）

   

   

  Btw, you can take it that 有相 means attach to the four forms: 我相�人相�众生相�寿者相

  无相 means not attach to those forms.

  For example in Diamond Sutra, it is said that if you practice with the idea that YOU are saving 'Sentient Beings', then you are not a true bodhisattva. Why? You are attached to 我相�人相�众生相�寿者相

  A Bodhisattva saves sentient beings, yet he does not harbour the idea of a Self, or a Being that is being saved, because he realized emptiness. This is true practice. An Arhant attains liberation, yet he does not harbour the idea of a Self that has attained liberation, because he realizes that there is no such self, and yet it is precisely because of this that he is known as an Arhant/liberated

  If you practice trying to 'save the world' while clinging to 我相�人相�众生相�寿者相, you'll never attain enlightenment even after aeons upon aeons of practice.

  If you realize emptiness and no longer cling to 我相�人相�众生相�寿者相, then instantaneously you are awake and liberated.

  However... true non-attachment arises only when you realize emptiness. Prior to that, you practice hard and put in effort to let them go, but you don't realize they are illusory, so the clinging tendency continues and effort continues. Realization only arises after some period of practice. And then after that, further practice and deepening of insight is necessary.

• Dawnfirstlight

  3 Feb 11, 23:08

  Thanks guys for sharing. 

  When I first "converted" to Buddhist, I've never thought of "studying" emptiness because I just wish to go to Pureland by simply reciting  Amitabha. Later, I found that "studying" emptiness is one of the "compulsory subject" for every Buddhist. One of the shifu said if you don't take the "emptiness" course now, you still have to "study" it in Pureland as Amitabha will preach to us.

• An Eternal Now

  3 Feb 11, 23:19

  Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:

  Thanks guys for sharing. 

  When I first "converted" to Buddhist, I've never thought of "studying" emptiness because I just wish to go to Pureland by simply reciting  Amitabha. Later, I found that "studying" emptiness is one of the "compulsory subject" for every Buddhist. One of the shifu said if you don't take the "emptiness" course now, you still have to "study" it in Pureland as Amitabha will preach to us.

  Yes. And why is emptiness compulsory? Because every Buddhist aims to attain enlightenment. Attain enlightenment means realizing emptiness.

• Xprobe

  3 Feb 11, 23:57

  
  

  
  

  Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:

  Recently I've heard of the below wisdom verse :

  有相修行百�劫，

  无相修行刹那间。

  Though I can say I understand what the Diamond Sutra and Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch  are about, but when it comes to real life, it is difficult to put into practice.

  How a person who is not enlightened yet see through form and formless ? (如何�视相与无相， 在生活中起作用？）

  以有相修无相

  别�入无相之相，浪费生命

• Dawnfirstlight

  5 Feb 11, 11:20

  Originally posted by Xprobe:

  以有相修无相

  别�入无相之相，浪费生命

  
  Yeah, I shall not attach to 无相之相. If one does not learn the truth and liberate himself from reincarnation, 那真是�世间白走一趟，浪费生命!

• Asromanista2001

  6 Feb 11, 16:16

  Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:

  Thanks guys for sharing. 

  When I first "converted" to Buddhist, I've never thought of "studying" emptiness because I just wish to go to Pureland by simply reciting  Amitabha. Later, I found that "studying" emptiness is one of the "compulsory subject" for every Buddhist. One of the shifu said if you don't take the "emptiness" course now, you still have to "study" it in Pureland as Amitabha will preach to us.

   

  u were a Christian ??

   

  so you've been liberated from that wishful thinking of a religion......................LOL

• Amitayus48

  7 Feb 11, 12:32

  Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:

  
  Yeah, I shall not attach to 无相之相. If one does not learn the truth and liberate himself from reincarnation, 那真是�世间白走一趟，浪费生命!

  Ya! the highest level of the samsara is �想��想天 - 此為其中之第四天，三界之最頂也，因而亦曰有頂天。�想��想者就此天之禪定而�之。此天之定心。至極�妙。寿命八万大劫。

  Amitabah!

• Amitayus48

  7 Feb 11, 12:42

  The expediency of applying this non-duality of form to achieve formless of ultimation.

  昔有人问六祖：“念佛有何利益？”

  
  六祖答曰：“念此一å�¥å�—无阿弥陀佛是为万世出世之妙é�“，æˆ�佛作祖之正因，是三界人天之眼目，是明心è§�性之慧ç�¯ï¼Œæ˜¯ç ´åœ°ç‹±ä¹‹çŒ›å°†ï¼Œæ–©ç¾¤é‚ªä¹‹å®�剑，五å�ƒå¤§è—�之骨髓，八万总æŒ�之è¦�门，å��方虚空之无际，广大一性之圆明，开黑暗之慧ç�¯ï¼Œè„±ç”Ÿæ­»ä¹‹è‰¯æ–¹ï¼Œæ¸¡è‹¦æµ·ä¹‹èˆŸèˆªï¼Œå‡ºä¸‰ç•Œä¹‹å¾„路，是本性弥陀，是唯心净土，å�³æ˜¯æœ¬å¸ˆï¼Œå�³æ˜¯åŒ–佛，最尊最上之妙门，无é‡�无边之功德。”

  
  诸大善信但è¦�记得这一å�¥é˜¿å¼¥é™€ä½›åœ¨æ€€ï¼ŒèŽ«æ•™å¤±è�½ï¼Œå¿µå¿µå¸¸çŽ°å‰�，时时ä¸�离心，无事也如是，有事也如是，安ä¹�也如是，病苦也如是，生也如是，死也如是，一念分明，有何问人觅归之途？所谓一å�¥å¼¥é™€ä½›ï¼Œæ— åˆ«å¿µï¼Œä¸�劳弹指到西方。——å�—无阿弥陀佛
  
  作者：慧能大师

  Amitabah!

• Xprobe

  9 Feb 11, 01:26

  我�觉你们都他妈的都是空谈，自己�修行，全部都是嘴巴到披岸的空谈之辈，浪费人身。

  虽然这论�是�扬佛法的平�，这几年�你们他妈的都没进步过。呜乎唉��

  人身难得今己得

  佛法难闻今以闻

  此生��今生度

  更�何生度此生