hi Aen,
i need help regarding the koan/pointer ' before birth who am i'.
what does this really means? though the actual practice (of following where the pointer is pointing to) is non-conceptual,i still couldn't comprehend how to follow the direction of it.
is practising this koan means focussing in a direct/non-intellectual way on the ' when is the beginning point of my awareness/tracing one's awareness to the point when it 'is not'/b4 it's existence?
pls elaborate
There is no meaning. It is a question, it is not a statement, so how can it be meaningful? You are trying to find out 'before birth, who am I', that's all. Don't think too much.
Before birth, means before everything. Before anything imaginable. Before all thinking.
What is present? What are you?
Btw who says in the beginning, Awareness is not? Don't make assumptions. Observe and see.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:"Btw who says in the beginning, Awareness is not? Don't make assumptions. "There is no meaning. It is a question, it is not a statement, so how can it be meaningful? You are trying to find out 'before birth, who am I', that's all. Don't think too much.
Before birth, means before everything. Before anything imaginable. Before all thinking.
What is present? What are you?
Btw who says in the beginning, Awareness is not? Don't make assumptions. Observe and see.
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i assumed 'before birth' means before physical bodily birth(when consciousness hasn't manifested) .... and based on this assumption,the practice means trying to 'imagine'/comprehend what it feels when the i am(awareness) being born/manifested frm out of nothing(i.e b4 birth).
but isn't awareness is always present also an assumption?when im busy in the distractions of daily life -work etc ... im not always 'aware of awareness',and isn't this evident of lack of presence of awareness?
Sperm and an egg
Originally posted by Wiser:Sperm and an egg
Nope... before birth means before anything perceivable as an object. Sperm and egg is a perception either in thought or visually, etc.
Originally posted by taoteching:i assumed 'before birth' means before physical bodily birth(when consciousness hasn't manifested) .... and based on this assumption,the practice means trying to 'imagine'/comprehend what it feels when the i am(awareness) being born/manifested frm out of nothing(i.e b4 birth).
but isn't awareness is always present also an assumption?when im busy in the distractions of daily life -work etc ... im not always 'aware of awareness',and isn't this evident of lack of presence of awareness?
As you stated yourself, those are assumptions. And assumptions are always prone to doubt.
What you are trying to find out is an irrefutible fact not dependent on analysis, inference, or assumptions. It is a fact to be directly seen in naked awareness without conceptualization, and once seen will give rise to utter certainty and doubtlessness. It is not a matter of trying to infer 'because of this, it is...' - it is just a fact of existence that is seen, or not!
You are trying to find out What IS, not what you think it should be. Also, try to stay focused and rather than trying to intellectually understand whether awareness is ever present or not... just find out this: Who am I?
ah...that will be formless. floating in the space before entering into the form of an egg and sperm.
if formless, where the "I " arise from?
Originally posted by Wiser:ah...that will be formless. floating in the space before entering into the form of an egg and sperm.
if formless, where the "I " arise from?
If formless, where got things floating in space?
If formless, where got something arising?
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:As you stated yourself, those are assumptions. And assumptions are always prone to doubt.
What you are trying to find out is an irrefutible fact not dependent on analysis, inference, or assumptions. It is a fact to be directly seen in naked awareness without conceptualization, and once seen will give rise to utter certainty and doubtlessness. It is not a matter of trying to infer 'because of this, it is...' - it is just a fact of existence that is seen, or not!
You are trying to find out What IS, not what you think it should be. Also, try to stay focused and rather than trying to intellectually understand whether awareness is ever present or not... just find out this: Who am I?
About 'utter certainty and doubtlessness' . to me there seems to be degrees of clarity of awareness.can there be such 'unshakable certainty of being' being attained?
what's ur personal experience? how 'bout thusness realization of this? i've read his stage 1 and 2,but hope for more elaboration to make things clearer
then use the word " nothing" lor.
floating is a word, space is also a word. Words invented by humans.
how about this word " conscience" ?
before you are born, you are just a "conscience" ?
Originally posted by taoteching:About 'utter certainty and doubtlessness' . to me there seems to be degrees of clarity of awareness.can there be such 'unshakable certainty of being' being attained?
what's ur personal experience? how 'bout thusness realization of this? i've read his stage 1 and 2,but hope for more elaboration to make things clearer
There is no degrees of clarity in Presence. You either realize this or you don't. Your Buddha-nature is complete and whole, there is no such thing as partial Buddha-nature!
Whether in thoughtless beingness, or in sound, sight, etc... the experience of Presence is whole, complete, indivisible.
Originally posted by Wiser:how about this word " conscience" ?
before you are born, you are just a "conscience" ?
"Conscience is an aptitude, faculty, intuition, or judgment of the intellect that distinguishes right from wrong"
Doesn't sound related to 'before birth' at all.
hey...may be this colorful illustration can help a bit to describe "conscience'
Tired, can't follow the video...
Here's an article for those interested in self-inquiry to read: http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/publications/who_am_i.html
1 . Who am I ?
The gross body which is composed of the seven humours (dhatus), I am not; the five cognitive sense organs, viz. the senses of hearing, touch, sight, taste, and smell, which apprehend their respective objects, viz. sound, touch, colour, taste, and odour, I am not; the five cognitive sense-organs, viz. the organs of speech, locomotion, grasping, excretion, and procreation, which have as their respective functions speaking, moving, grasping, excreting, and enjoying, I am not; the five vital airs, prana, etc., which perform respectively the five functions of in-breathing, etc., I am not; even the mind which thinks, I am not; the nescience too, which is endowed only with the residual impressions of objects, and in which there are no objects and no functioning's, I am not.
2. If I am none of these, then who am I?
After negating all of the above-mentioned as 'not this', 'not this', that Awareness which alone remains - that I am.
3. What is the nature of Awareness?
The nature of Awareness is existence-consciousness-bliss
4. When will the realization of the Self be gained?
...continue in the URL
Hmm...when i was young, I rmb having a vision of myself looking a huge screen. An angel then tells me that is what my life will be like ahead of me. Until now i dunno if it was just a dream or a memory.
Originally posted by Deino:Hmm...when i was young, I rmb having a vision of myself looking a huge screen. An angel then tells me that is what my life will be like ahead of me. Until now i dunno if it was just a dream or a memory.
It is just a vision... to discover your true nature, drop all thinking, imagination, analysis and ask yourself: Before birth, Who am I?
Originally posted by taoteching:i assumed 'before birth' means before physical bodily birth(when consciousness hasn't manifested) .... and based on this assumption,the practice means trying to 'imagine'/comprehend what it feels when the i am(awareness) being born/manifested frm out of nothing(i.e b4 birth).
but isn't awareness is always present also an assumption?when im busy in the distractions of daily life -work etc ... im not always 'aware of awareness',and isn't this evident of lack of presence of awareness?
Here's a hint: before birth also means 'before imagination' since anything imaginable is 'after birth'. You can never figure it out in your mind... so give up that attempt and look into what you are before birth. You will discover it is an undeniable fact of Being that has nothing to do with imagination and 'figuring it out'. It is what undeniably IS, not what you think/imagine it is/should be based on inference and learned knowledge of what 'before birth' should be.
Also, the fact that you know you were distracted means awareness is present in the distraction, otherwise you will never know it.
The quest for enlightenment is the quest for truth or reality. It’s not a quest for ideas about truth—that’s philosophy. And it’s not a quest to realize your fantasies about truth—that’s fundamentalized religion. It’s a quest for truth on truth’s terms. It’s a quest for the underlying principle of life, the unifying element of existence.
In your quiet moments of honesty, you know that you are not who you present yourself as, or who you pretend to be. Although you have changed identities many times, and changed them even in the course of a single day, none of them fit for long. They are all in a process of constant decay. One moment you’re a loving person, the next an angry one. One day you’re an indulgent, worldly person; the next a pure, spiritual lover of God. One moment you love your image of yourself, and the next you loathe it. On it goes, identified with one self-image after another, each as separate and false as the last.
http://www.adyashanti.org/index.php?file=writings_inner&writingid=30