I opt out few months ago. I also advised my family members to opt out after listening to Master Chin Kong on organ donations. I don't want to take the risk of being born in lower realm.
Following is talk on organ donation by Master Chin Kong:
If one cannot let go of the fear of pain to one's physical body upon death or eliminate fear of ending up in the lower realms after death, he/she is not ready to leave this illusionary realm of duality permanently yet. :)
Rainbow Jigsaw of Life (spiritual free-thinker)
There is no right and wrong issue for this topic. Is a matter of the kind hearted policy in place and choice, as well as the level of cultivation of practitioners. Some cultivators have achieved very high grade and there is no concern for them on this noble cause of organ donation. Some practitioners have many karma debtors and requires the assistance of peaceful conditions and the compassion of other practitioners as an impetus to boost the power of practice before and during their last breath. If a low grade cultivator whose lifespan is not long enough to garner merits to withstand karmic debtors, the suffering of excruciating pain (liken to turtle "hardcover skin" being peeled off alive) during their last breath, may end up still in the cycle of rebirth with the "help" of past / present life karmic debtors, and would not be able to liberate themselves from samsara, If they arises anger during last breath, they may end up landing themselves in hell, and their vow of liberating the cosmos of the past, present and future would have to be delayed and more suffering living beings that needed their speedy help is being delayed as well . In addition, the organ donated to the other living being that probably survive a few more years, but did not lead a wholesome lifestyle probably thinking that they can still rely on technology of medical treatment for other part of their organs or life in future. Moreover, the operation is not 100 percents successful, and in fact, they are still living in the cycle of samsara. All living beings are by nature Buddha, beyond life and death, this short lifespan passed away is merely the form while spiritually, they rebirth to other realms or become human again. They will achieve Buddhahood in future with the helps of the Buddha dharma that has etched in their mind in a matter of yuan, and degree of dust in sentient beings. I would say that this is a big dilemma for those who understand the function of cosmos, but there is a choice of important, foresight and bigger picture for the well beings of cosmos, and the decision is yours.
Namo Amitabha
Originally posted by Rainbow Jigsaw:If one cannot let go of the fear of pain to one's physical body upon death or eliminate fear of ending up in the lower realms after death, he/she is not ready to leave this illusionary realm of duality permanently yet. :)
Rainbow Jigsaw of Life (spiritual free-thinker)
Well, from your post I can tell that you don't understand Pureland Teachings. Fear of being born in lower realm is good for those people who practice Pureland because it will motivate us to practice more diligently. Pureland Teachings is more for people who are not enlightened in this life, thus to pass away peacefully is important.
Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:Well, from your post I can tell that you don't understand Pureland Teachings. Fear of being born in lower realm is good for those people who practice Pureland because it will motivate us to practice more diligently. Pureland Teachings is more for people who are not enlightened in this life, thus to pass away peacefully is important.
I hope not too many people prefer to learn using fear as the main motivation, as the final moments for them will usually not be peaceful. People who have experience with wandering ghosts who did not die peacefully will understand what I've just shared. The thoughts that people have during their final moments are often their deepest fears and regrets in their lifetime, and that happens when they are often unable to speak anymore.
Rainbow Jigsaw of Life (spiritual free-thinker)
Originally posted by Rainbow Jigsaw:If one cannot let go of the fear of pain to one's physical body upon death or eliminate fear of ending up in the lower realms after death, he/she is not ready to leave this illusionary realm of duality permanently yet. :)
Rainbow Jigsaw of Life (spiritual free-thinker)
Indeed, when one is liberated from birth and death, one has already overcome all fears. He will not feel the slightest fear even if he fall off a building (and I mean it literally*).
This is the fourth stage of enlightenment... the stage of the Arhant. Not many can truthfully say they have reached such a state yet (including me).
*The Dhammapada Verse 397
XXVI (14) The Story of Uggasena, the son of a Rich Man.
While residing at the Jetavana Monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse
(397) of the Dhammapada, with reference to Uggasena, the son of a
Rich Man.
After marrying a dancer from a theatrical troupe, Uggasena was
trained by his father-in-law who was an acrobat, and became very
skillful in accrobatics. One day while he was demonstrating his
skill, the Buddha came on the scene. After hearing the Buddha's
teaching Uggasena attained Arahatship while he was still performing
his feats on top of a long bamboo pole. After that, he climbed down
from the pole and pleaded with the Buddha to accept him as a
bhikkhu and was accordingly admitted into the order.
One day, when other Bhikkhus asked him whether he did not have any
feeling of fear while climbing down from such a great height (i.e.
about 90 feet), he answered in the negative. The Bhikkhus took that
to mean that Uggasena was claiming to have attained Arahatship even
then. So, they went to the Buddha and said, "Vernerable Sir !
Uggasena claims himself to be an Arahat; he must be telling lies."
To them the Buddha replied. " Bhikkhus, one who has cut off all
fetters like my son Uggasena, has no fear."
Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows;
Verse 397 : Him I call a Brahmana, who has cut off all fetters and
is fearless, who is beyond attainment and is free from moral
defilement.
p.s. 'fear' cannot be eliminated by will or suppression (which doesn't solve the problem but only worsens it by not knowing how it works, and let it fester unconsciously), it can only be eliminated by deepening insights/realization (into the nature of no-self, impermanence, emptiness) and traversing the stages of enlightenment.
It is my wish of course, that I will reach liberation (from all sufferings, afflictions [including fears, aversion, craving, etc], rebirth cycle, etc) this very life... ASAP... then I don't need to opt out anymore.. haha.
In fact I have been contemplating this past few days... will I be able to achieve liberation before I kenna some terrible accident and die? LOL... it's like placing a bet. Better not take chances for now..
Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:I opt out few months ago. I also advised my family members to opt out after listening to Master Chin Kong on organ donations. I don't want to take the risk of being born in lower realm.
Following is talk on organ donation by Master Chin Kong:
Hi Dawn,
I have watched the video. I think I see it differently from you. Pls don take offence.
But first let me clarify something, ä¸é˜´ refers to bardo state right?
I think Master Chin Kong meant that we should chant Amituofo earnestly and diligently when we are still living...
so at the point of death, we can pass away easily... not in this ä¸é˜´ state...
if we did not practise earnestly and have other thoughts in mind, how can we able to go Pureland? The most important point he has stated: 临终走的时候，清清楚楚，明明白白
And so I think, organ donation is not the reason that we canot go PL... it's because we are not hardworking enough and also we have other thoughts/attachments in our minds...
Originally posted by 2009novice:
Hi Dawn,I have watched the video. I think I see it differently from you. Pls don take offence.
But first let me clarify something, ä¸é˜´ refers to bardo state right?
I think Master Chin Kong meant that we should chant Amituofo earnestly and diligently when we are still living...
so at the point of death, we can pass away easily... not in this ä¸é˜´ state...
if we did not practise earnestly and have other thoughts in mind, how can we able to go Pureland? The most important point he has stated: 临终走的时候，清清楚楚，明明白白
And so I think, organ donation is not the reason that we canot go PL... it's because we are not hardworking enough and also we have other thoughts/attachments in our minds...
I have the same understanding as you but nobody is so sure that he will be born in PL. Thus, I don't want to take the risk of being born in the lower realm as one may have hatred due to the pain from organ donation. Hatred will lead to be born in lower realm. As organ donation process starts from the moment a person passes away. According to Buddhist masters, our senses will only leave us 8 to 14 hours after a person passes away.
If born in the lower realm, I really don't know have to wait till when to reach liberation (了生脱æ»ã€‚）
Originally posted by 2009novice:
Hi Dawn,I have watched the video. I think I see it differently from you. Pls don take offence.
But first let me clarify something, ä¸é˜´ refers to bardo state right?
I think Master Chin Kong meant that we should chant Amituofo earnestly and diligently when we are still living...
so at the point of death, we can pass away easily... not in this ä¸é˜´ state...
if we did not practise earnestly and have other thoughts in mind, how can we able to go Pureland? The most important point he has stated: 临终走的时候，清清楚楚，明明白白
And so I think, organ donation is not the reason that we canot go PL... it's because we are not hardworking enough and also we have other thoughts/attachments in our minds...
Some purelanders do not have realisations.
So can they not generate hatred in the process of organ transplant?
Originally posted by Rainbow Jigsaw:I hope not too many people prefer to learn using fear as the main motivation, as the final moments for them will usually not be peaceful. People who have experience with wandering ghosts who did not die peacefully will understand what I've just shared. The thoughts that people have during their final moments are often their deepest fears and regrets in their lifetime, and that happens when they are often unable to speak anymore.
Rainbow Jigsaw of Life (spiritual free-thinker)
Maybe it's not so much as "fear" but more of a warning. A warning that life can end anytime and a warning that we do not know what we will end up as next. Without these warning lights, we are bound to become complacent, or slacken off in practice, so warnings will drive a person - just like an approaching exam or deadline will drive someone to study or work harder. Without these warnings, people will not want to end Birth and Death in this lifetime.
When we are concentrating on our practice, we don't harbour fear in our hearts. For a PL practitioner, the warning can lead him or her strengthen refuge towards the PL and the Buddha. With this refuge, with the blessings of the Buddha and with singlemindness in practice, any fears will be removed at practice and at death.
Originally posted by Pure Emptiness:Some purelanders do not have realisations.
So can they not generate hatred in the process of organ transplant?
You need not be enlightened when you leave for the Pureland. PLanders aim to leave for the Pureland when they are still alive, not when they die and enter the Bardo. Although in some cases they go during bardo. If a person goes to the pureland when he is alive, he will just leave behind an empty shell (the mass of smelly flesh and organs so called haha..).
Originally posted by zero thought:Maybe it's not so much as "fear" but more of a warning. A warning that life can end anytime and a warning that we do not know what we will end up as next. Without these warning lights, we are bound to become complacent, or slacken off in practice, so warnings will drive a person - just like an approaching exam or deadline will drive someone to study or work harder. Without these warnings, people will not want to end Birth and Death in this lifetime.
When we are concentrating on our practice, we don't harbour fear in our hearts. For a PL practitioner, the warning can lead him or her strengthen refuge towards the PL and the Buddha. With this refuge, with the blessings of the Buddha and with singlemindness in practice, any fears will be removed at practice and at death.
I agree. The original intention of teaching people about the lower realms is to educate, not to cause fear. But depending on the teacher's and individual's inner issues which may add other aspects of fear into the picture, the individual's inner fears can become very great, even though on the surface, the inner fears do not seem to be visible. When people are at their low points of their lives, have serious illness or nearing death, that's when all the deepest fears will surface within the person and result in great problems.
In my course of healing work, I come across many people with all sorts of inner fears which create havoc in their current lives. Some of these fears come from previous lifetimes carried forward to this life, as those fears were too great and were not healed/resolved back then. And often, people continue to reinforce those inner fears in this life, snowballing their inner issues.
For people with deep unresolved fears of going to Hell or lower realms after death, often will worry about that, during their final moments. As you will all know, our thoughts during our final moments will affect what happens to us after we die.
I meant to highlight that using fear as the main motivation for any aspect in our lives will cause more problems than good.
Rainbow Jigsaw of Life
Buddhism is to achieve the proven records of attainment such as many living examples of purelanders who rebirthed to Pureland while alive or during their bardo state. Their way of iliving is also a living example to samsaric people to learn and emulate. If all living beings will to learn from them, there is no organ transplant required - samsaric becomes pureland - an excellent living example of wholesome lifestyle. It also helps their family members who is non purelander to stay calm and recite Buddha Amitabha and plant immeasure merits benefiting themselves, the decease and contribute to the harmonious frequency for the samsaric world.
"Moreover, Universally Expansive, in the future, anyone who has a long illness and can neither live nor die, who always dreams of evil ghosts or dead families, or dreams of walking on dangerous roads with spirits and in which these situations continue for months to years, and has a chronic disease, groans in his dreams, and always feels grieved and unhappy, must have done something wrong or evil causing these retributions. This is all due to their past karma road, which is a judgement that has not been decided, and which is not allowing them to die, or to recover either. Most of the ordinary men or women cannot distinguish why these phenomena happen.
Speak this three times in front of the sick person and make sure that he hears what you say clearly. If he has already been in a coma or has breathed his last, you can still speak these words and read this sutra aloud for seven days. Because of this, after the person dies, his past heavy crimes can be released forever, including the five crimes which will lead him to Endless Hell. In his next life, he will always know the things that happened in his former life.
At that time, Bodhisattva Kishitigarbha, Mahasattva, said to Buddha, "World-Honored One, I have observed sins of thought or action from everyone in all the worlds. Even though they do a few good deeds their kind hearts soon regress. If they fall into a bad circumstance, their evil thoughts will continue. It is as if these people are walking in mud carrying a heavy stone on their shoulders.ince most of these people have such bad habits, in order to help them to be reborn into a better life, their parents or relatives should make offerings or oblations for them after they pass away. hey can also recite the sutras or the names of the Buddha and Bodhisattva. They should make sure that they keep every single word deep in their minds. Though these beings have fallen into evil karma, their criminal offences can be eliminated by oblations and offerings in their name by their family or relatives. If their family or relatives can do many good deeds for the dead during the first seven days, the dead can avoid evil forever and be reborn in heaven or as a human and enjoy wonderful happiness. In addition, the people who promote benefits for the dead can also obtain endless merits.
Why? Because offering sacrifices by killing has not the slightest merit for the deceased persons at all. On the contrary, it will increase their burden, because their relatives make more offences for the deceased. The deceased person's spirit has to defend itself against the spirits of the sacrificed creatures. This might risk the rebirth of that person in heaven or the human world. Not to mention the deceased who, while he was alive had few merits, and thus according to his karma, has to suffer pains in the evil level. How could his relatives increase his karma?
"For example, it's like a person who has eaten nothing for three days and is carrying baggage which weighs more than one hundred kilograms. Unexpectedly, his neighbor asks him to bring some extra things for him. Now his burden is heavier than before. World-Honored One, I have observed that as long as beings in all the worlds do good deeds for Buddhadharma, no matter as small as a hair, a drop of water, a grain of sand or a speck of dust, they will obtain all merits themselves."
"After death the Great Ghost of Impermanence will take the spirit of the deceased away without warning. At that time, nobody knows whether the spirit's future is good or bad. During the first forty-nine days after death, the deceased does not hear anything. At that time, he will be judged in a court arguing his karmic retribution. He will not be reborn until the trial. Before the trial in hell, the deceased has already felt distress, not to speak of suffering in the evil level. The deceased longs for help from his children or relatives during these forty-nine days. After forty-nine days, he will follow his own karmic retributions and suffer. These kinds of criminal persons usually cannot be released for hundreds or thousands of years. If the being has ever committed one of Five Endless Offences, he or she will fall into Endless Hell and suffer all kinds of pain for an indefinite time.
"World-Honored One, the beings, regardless if they are men or women now and in the future, as long as they can recite a Buddha's name, they will have endless merit. They can obtain still more merit by reciting more Buddhas' names. These people can earn great merit between life and death, and they will not fall into the evil level on earth.
"Any relative, even if there is only one relative, who can recite Buddha's name aloud for the person who is going to die, can allow the person to be pardoned of all karmic retribution except the Five Endless Offences. Though the Five Endless Offences can make them fall into hell for millions of aeons and not be released, if their relatives and/or living beings recite Buddha's name for them when they are about to die, or if they recite the names themselves, their offences can generally also be eliminated. The merit they earn will be uncountable, and their offences will be eliminated."
kind of think of it, perhaps for older people who die, they also don't want ur organ. as i never hear the doctor requesting when my grandparent (70-80+) pass away.
Originally posted by sinweiy:kind of think of it, perhaps for older people who die, they also don't want ur organ. as i never hear the doctor requesting when my grandparent (70-80+) pass away.
I heard eat alot of medicine ppl also dowan oragans.
If buddha is truly benevolent, generous & powerful, he will do away with cause & effect so that there's only cause and no effect.
Originally posted by cyberr1981:If buddha is truly benevolent, generous & powerful, he will do away with cause & effect so that there's only cause and no effect.
maybe u need to read more, buddha while alive also suffer birth, old age, illness and death 生è€�ç—…æ». He cannot do away cause and effect. all is emptiness except cause and effect.
Though Buddha is the highest enlightened beings with unconceiveable spiritual power, he is unable to do the following:
1. to eliminate or change the karmic retribution
2. to cross over those who reject Buddhism
3. to cross over the entire sentient beings in the Dharma Realms
/\
Originally posted by cyberr1981:If buddha is truly benevolent, generous & powerful, he will do away with cause & effect so that there's only cause and no effect.
What I'm going to say may offend people, but still feel the need to say:
Universal Law of Cause and Effect was not created by Buddha. All beings, from all worlds, regardless of religion/faith/belief system, regardless of level of spiritual evolution and advancement, are all bound by it, whether they believe it or not. That is what governs everyone's life journeys.
Without this Universal Law, people will not be able to learn what they need to learn. People need to experience and understand the consequences of their actions and life choices.
Rainbow Jigsaw of Life (spiritual free-thinker)
Originally posted by cyberr1981:If buddha is truly benevolent, generous & powerful, he will do away with cause & effect so that there's only cause and no effect.
There is no beginning and there is not end, the problem is that you look questioningly to the Buddha as he were a creator, there is no creator as such, just an unceasing flux, as there cannot be something created out of nothing.
Looking for a creator always falls short, as you find more questions than answers.
Just as one form exist due to existing conditions, it too, changes into something else. The present is the culmination of the past, so too is the future.
Too understand cause and effect is to begin to understand the cause of suffering as it happens. The Buddha has already given you away out of suffering, if you are only ready to start.
Cause and effect will surely carry on irregardless of beliefs, or "non" belief. When you let go of being "you", the cause and effect of being "you" as slowly cease to exist.
Originally posted by Rainbow Jigsaw:
What I'm going to say may offend people, but still feel the need to say:Universal Law of Cause and Effect was not created by Buddha. All beings, from all worlds, regardless of religion/faith/belief system, regardless of level of spiritual evolution and advancement, are all bound by it, whether they believe it or not. That is what governs everyone's life journeys.
Without this Universal Law, people will not be able to learn what they need to learn. People need to experience and understand the consequences of their actions and life choices.
Rainbow Jigsaw of Life (spiritual free-thinker)
Lol... earlier i posted karma is not created by Buddha too...
U really a spiritual free-thinker? I think u knw alot...
Originally posted by 2009novice:
Lol... earlier i posted karma is not created by Buddha too...U really a spiritual free-thinker? I think u knw alot...
I'm a spiritual free-thinker because there are important truths as well as flaws (as a result of misinterpretation of the great Higher Beings like Buddha and Jesus by much less spiritually evolved men in ancient history) in each and every mainstream religion. To take sides with a religion is to exclude all other angles of truth in our extremely complex Universe, and introduces the issue of attachment to a Higher Being or belief system. Spirituality is the true nature of what everyone is, regardless of religion/faith/belief system.
To have any form of attachment is to fall into the duality 'trap' of extremity. Higher Beings like Buddha and Jesus came to help people understand the Truth of Earth, and be better people, not to build themselves up as idols to be worshipped or build huge organisations of followers.
At the end of the day, all of us have to ask ourselves very honestly, why are we truly living here on Earth for? What's the fundamental reason? If one knows the uncorrupted answer, all will be clear, and getting out of endless reincarnation cycles will be so much easier. We will not understand or accept the answer, as long as we are still struggling to deal with any form of attachments. We will not be able to see the entire land if we stay at a spot.
So many people all around the world study religious texts day and night, preach religious stuff day and night, for much of their whole lives, yet how many of them since the start of human civilisation are truly able to free themselves of the reincarnation cycles, even after endless lifetimes? Because most people cannot remember enough important details of their past lives, many are simply repeating past mistakes.
As long as people cannot complete their learning of duality, they have to remain in this illusionary realm of duality, forever, if need be.
Rainbow Jigsaw of Life (spiritual free-thinker)
Originally posted by Rainbow Jigsaw:I'm a spiritual free-thinker because there are important truths as well as flaws (as a result of misinterpretation of the great Higher Beings like Buddha and Jesus by much less spiritually evolved men in ancient history) in each and every mainstream religion. To take sides with a religion is to exclude all other angles of truth in our extremely complex Universe, and introduces the issue of attachment to a Higher Being or belief system. Spirituality is the true nature of what everyone is, regardless of religion/faith/belief system.
To have any form of attachment is to fall into the duality 'trap' of extremity. Higher Beings like Buddha and Jesus came to help people understand the Truth of Earth, and be better people, not to build themselves up as idols to be worshipped or build huge organisations of followers.
At the end of the day, all of us have to ask ourselves very honestly, why are we truly living here on Earth for? What's the fundamental reason? If one knows the uncorrupted answer, all will be clear, and getting out of endless reincarnation cycles will be so much easier. We will not understand or accept the answer, as long as we are still struggling to deal with any form of attachments. We will not be able to see the entire land if we stay at a spot.
So many people all around the world study religious texts day and night, preach religious stuff day and night, for much of their whole lives, yet how many of them since the start of human civilisation are truly able to free themselves of the reincarnation cycles, even after endless lifetimes? Because most people cannot remember enough important details of their past lives, many are simply repeating past mistakes.
As long as people cannot complete their learning of duality, they have to remain in this illusionary realm of duality, forever, if need be.
Rainbow Jigsaw of Life (spiritual free-thinker)
You claim to be a spiritual thinker, and yet you held beliefs about this and that, and opinionated at that.
This is a Buddhist forum, and I am sure most will be interested in knowing the flaws in interpretation of Buddhism or Buddha in conveying his message. Other religions, I don't know, but practising Buddhist these age, Buddhist are not dogmatic, carrying the labels like a totem.
You have made a claim that is made to sound like it is a fact, like which you previously did, but unable or unwilling to verify.
You have previously cast aspersions to Buddha, Jesus, have been condescending when others tried to engage in establishing your claims,even lacked conviction in your beliefs when confronted.
And now you have insinuated there are interpretation flaws. Do , in the interest of Truth, share with your views and maybe put in context your words.
Originally posted by 2009novice:
Lol... earlier i posted karma is not created by Buddha too...U really a spiritual free-thinker? I think u knw alot...
No biggie, just a label, just like that if I should call myself the "Great Oxymoron" or "Pompous Pontificate", "Great Pretender", never mind that I don't know what that means, just have a nice ring to it!
Or for more "meaningful" label,you may address me as "Rambo Crossword Puzzle".
And what are the meaning to my my title?!!
Well "Rambo" meaning shooting from the hips, spewing words like a machine gun, anywhere and everywhere, symbolising my impulsive, spontaneous nature.
"Crossword Puzzle" denote that I see the world in black and words, like a crossword puzzle, and my wisdom is like the paper it is written on, with length and breadth, but no depth.
Lastly, but not the least, I hail from the "Puzzle" family,my aspect featuring the ultimate puzzle of all, one with no answers, guaranteed to keep you puzzled to eternity!
Originally posted by Weychin:No biggie, just a label, just like that if I should call myself the "Great Oxymoron" or "Pompous Pontificate", "Great Pretender", never mind that I don't know what that means, just have a nice ring to it!
Or for more "meaningful" label,you may address me as "Rambo Crossword Puzzle".
And what are the meaning to my my title?!!
Well "Rambo" meaning shooting from the hips, spewing words like a machine gun, anywhere and everywhere, symbolising my impulsive, spontaneous nature.
"Crossword Puzzle" denote that I see the world in black and words, like a crossword puzzle, and my wisdom is like the paper it is written on, with length and breadth, but no depth.
Lastly, but not the least, I hail from the "Puzzle" family,my aspect featuring the ultimate puzzle of all, one with no answers, guaranteed to keep you puzzled to eternity!
Haha... rest assured.. My knowledge of Buddhism may be mediocre, but I am not easily confused.
Buddha always say we must check and not to follow his teachings blindly...
Before I took refuge, I did some reading, little research... just by reading the 4 Noble Truths got me pondering and pondering....
Watched news- people suffering/ natural disasters, killings, wars
See doctor- many old people queueing/ waiting for doctor...
See funeral at void decks, or friends who passed away...
It's not that I am pessimisstic or what.. I just want to be more sensitive to other people's feelings...
@ Rainbow Jigsaw,
I'm not sure whether Platform Sutra can solve your questions on duality. Maybe u can try reading it. lol