Hi guys, this is just a curious question that pop up my mind earlier this week- NS related issue
As an Officer Cadet Trainee (OCT), everyone have to go through a 3weeks gruelling Jungle Confidence Course(JCC) in brunei. And I heard that during the JCC period, you will be given a quill and they will not issue you much combat ration. So meaning that you have to go out in the jungle to hunt for wild animals to eat. They give you the quill to keep with you so that in times of extreme hunger you can kill it instantly and satisfy your needs.
Here comes my question, What if the oct personel is a buddhism and have to abstain from killing but in army especially surviving in the jungle they teach you that 'For one to survive, one must die'? If the person kill the quill or any wild animals, he is against his own personal religious beliefs and if he doesn't kill, he is against the organisational order. What must he do and in way perspective view can he sees it as so he doesn't go against his personal religious beliefs neither does he go against the organisational order?
For eg,If you are marooned in desert where there is no water excepting an unopened wine bottle left and the only form of liquid available to you. Would you allow your religious belief(s) (assuming it is forbidden to consume alchohol) come in the way of quenching your parched throat?
What is true liberates and what is a belief binds!
I won't know how to decide either if i am really a very religious kindda guy. Lets say in a war or mission that this is a critical decision to make unless you are alone you can let your subordinates do the slaughtering. Othewise the strongest will pull through without food its all right for days. Water should be a major concern. Are you a vegetarian? Myself i am not a butcher, never slaughter any lifestock before so even if i am not religious i guess i can't either. Watching my enemies fell from a distant from my rifle may be fine with me but finishing them off with a knife i don't think i can do it either. Unless its a desperate situation and somehow external factors and experiences mold me into a slasher.
Originally posted by yixiang:Hi guys, this is just a curious question that pop up my mind earlier this week- NS related issue
As an Officer Cadet Trainee (OCT), everyone have to go through a 3weeks gruelling Jungle Confidence Course(JCC) in brunei. And I heard that during the JCC period, you will be given a quill and they will not issue you much combat ration. So meaning that you have to go out in the jungle to hunt for wild animals to eat. They give you the quill to keep with you so that in times of extreme hunger you can kill it instantly and satisfy your needs.
Here comes my question, What if the oct personel is a buddhism and have to abstain from killing but in army especially surviving in the jungle they teach you that 'For one to survive, one must die'? If the person kill the quill or any wild animals, he is against his own personal religious beliefs and if he doesn't kill, he is against the organisational order. What must he do and in way perspective view can he sees it as so he doesn't go against his personal religious beliefs neither does he go against the organisational order?
Dear yi xiang ,
i understand your concern abt killing .SAF do understand the point that you can abstain fm killing. that is very clearly spelled out in directives .
You see ....defence of a nation and religious in two different thing.if you lumped this two together , you are using worldly idea to subdue whatever your own convictions and beliefs(religion) and you feel very uneasy and create unnecessary stress during ur NSF .
Buddhism teaches compassion to all living beings ,but in wartime ,we understand that situation do not permit us to live on wild fruits especially most wild fruits in brunei is poisonous
Even if we kill animals for survival , we must do so on a empathy and not on a greed or rampaging animals for food and dispose their remains dignifiedly.
Yes ,there is karma on the animals we killed ,but by Buddha's teaching ,the heaviest karma comes from killing of human with intentional to end the other's life not during war time .this will ripen in one's lifetime
for a detailed discussion on karma and learn more , please feel free to PM me as i invite u to our young discussion grp to learn more during NS ..
Your answer is simple .Just attend the lesson on jungle survival with a clear mind .When the animals is killed ,do not harbour thoughts and instead do your own prayer for the animal to be reborn in good realm.
I see that your understanding in Buddhism is shallow.hope you can private message me and we have a buddhism discussion for this age group to understand the Buddha Dharma .
Cheers
Collin
U eat kfc also indirectly contribute to the slaughtering of birds what, although u did not physically kill the bird... when you are hungry and isolated in a jungle, i see how u gonna survive.
Unless, u manage to survive on fruits u find along the way, if there's any.
I am sure your GOD will understand you as you are undergoing this kind of tough training.
But if you dont kill, you will die of hunger isnt it? Maybe just pray for the animal you caught and give blessing to that animal before you make a swift kill.
Hahaha!Bohiruci,why bother to defend your mentally ill faith?I already said it is mentally ill to value animals more than a human life.
If it is possible you may want to do some research on edible plants / wild fruits so you don't have to kill.
Unless they train you in hunting, giving you a quail to carry around so that you can kill when you are starving cannot reflect the real situation when there is war. 1st you may have already been starving for days and too weak to hunt. 2nd if the area has enemy troops, going out to hunt puts you in danger. 3rd with lots of gunfire, the animals will be frightened and will leave or go into hiding so it will be more difficult to see them compared to a peaceful jungle.
Ultimately, what we killed and ate, we have to repay. Causes always lead to effects. Effects always follow causes. Whatever your choice is, you will undergo the effect.
On keeping the precept on killing - there is an interesting story below - this is from Section 37 of the Sutra of the 42 sections. Again whatever your decision is it's your choice.
Staying Mindful of Moral Precepts Brings Us Close to the Way
The Buddha said, "My disciples may be several thousand miles away from me, but if they remember my moral precepts, they will certainly attain the fruition of the Way.
"If those who are by my side do not follow my moral precepts, they may see me constantly, but in the end they will not attain the Way."
The thirty-seventh section says that if you believe in the Buddha's precepts, then no matter how far away you are from the Buddha, it is as if you were right next to him. But if you don't believe in and hold the Buddha's precepts, then you may always be by the Buddha's side, but you won't see him and you won't hear the Dharma. This is what the Sixth Patriarch meant when he said, "If you believe in me, you may be 108,000 miles away from me, but it amounts to being right by my side. But if you don't believe in me, although you may be right by my side, it will be the same as if you were 108,000 miles away." That is also the meaning of this section of the Sutra.
The Buddha said, "My disciples may be several thousand miles away from me, but if they remember my moral precepts, they will certainly attain the fruition of the Way." The Buddha said, "Even if my disciples are very distant from me, if they can constantly recollect my precepts and never forget them, and if they can rely on them and maintain them in their cultivation, such disciples will surely attain the fruition of the Way."
If those who are by my side do not follow my moral precepts, they may see me constantly, but in the end they will not attain the Way. Someone who is to my left or right may always see me, but if he doesn't cultivate in accord with my precepts, then no matter how he tries, it won't be easy for him to attain the Way.
This section of text makes it clear that if you do what the teachings say, if you rely on the Buddhadharma in your cultivation, then you are a true disciple of the Buddha; you will constantly be in the presence of the Buddha; you will always be studying under the Buddha. If you don't hold the precepts, however, you'll miss the opportunity that is right in front of you.
Once there were two Bhikshus in Varanasi who wanted to make the long journey to Shravasti to see the Buddha. As they walked, they grew more and more thirsty, until they could barely walk any further. They were about to die of thirst. In front of them, they found a little water that had collected in a human skull.
One of the Bhikshus took up the skull, drank some of the water, and then turned to give some to the other Bhikshu. The other Bhikshu, seeing that the water was in a skull, and that, moreover, there were many bugs in it, didn't drink it.
The first Bhikshu said, "Why aren't you drinking the water? We are nearly dead of thirst."
The other one answered, "Because the Buddha's precepts say that we can't drink water if there are bugs in it. Although I may die of thirst, I'm not going to drink water with bugs in it. I want to stick to the Buddha's precepts in my cultivation."
The first Bhikshu said, "Oh, you're really stupid. If you drink some of the water, you'll be able to go and see the Buddha. If you don't drink it, you'll die of thirst. Don't be so inflexible."
Even after such a rebuke, the other Bhikshu still wouldn't take a drink. The first Bhikshu drank all of the water, and as he walked on he felt very strong. But the second Bhikshu, who hadn't drunk any water, died of thirst along the way.
Because the second Bhikshu had single-mindedly held the precepts, he was reborn in the Trayastrimsa Heaven and was endowed with the blessed appearance of a god. From there he went to see the Buddha, and upon hearing the Buddha speak Dharma for him, he attained the pure Dharma-eye and realized the fruition of Arhatship. Meanwhile, the Bhikshu who had drunk the water from the skull arrived at Shravasti after three more days of travelling. The Bhikshu who had died of thirst saw the Buddha on the night of his death and then realized the fruition. Three days later, the other Bhikshu arrived and saw the Buddha.
The Buddha asked him, "Where did you come from? How many people came with you? Was the trip uneventful?" The Bhikshu told his story to the Buddha in detail: "We came from Varanasi, and the road was long. At one point on the way we were without water, but eventually we found some water that had collected in a skull. I drank some, but my fellow cultivator wouldn't drink it when he saw that there were bugs in it, so he died of thirst. The fact is that he didn't have affinities with the Buddha, and so he died instead of seeing the Buddha. His attachments were too strong."
After the Buddha heard the story, he told the Bhikshu who had died of thirst to come forward. The Buddha said, "That very day he was reborn in the heavens and was endowed with the life span of a god, which is quite long. Then he came to my Dharma assembly, and I spoke Dharma for him. He has already realized the fruition of the Way. You say that he was stupid, but in truth you are the stupid one. You didn't keep the Buddha's precepts, and although you have come to see me, you might as well not have seen me, because your mind isn't true. You aren't sincere enough; you didn't hold the precepts."
So from this episode you can see that, whether or not you are beside the Buddha, what matters is holding to the Buddha's precepts as you cultivate. Then you actually get to see the Buddha. If you don't cultivate according to the precepts, although you may be at the Buddha's side, it's as if you never saw him in the first place.
I think they had an interview before you enrol into commando unit right???
So i bet they have asked you already before - whether you are OK dealing with tough training / killing of wild animals in the jungle and stuff.
Perhaps you can consider being vegetarian for the next 2 years so that you can atone for your sins.. Perhaps that might help?
Originally posted by zero thought:If it is possible you may want to do some research on edible plants / wild fruits so you don't have to kill.
Unless they train you in hunting, giving you a quail to carry around so that you can kill when you are starving cannot reflect the real situation when there is war. 1st you may have already been starving for days and too weak to hunt. 2nd if the area has enemy troops, going out to hunt puts you in danger. 3rd with lots of gunfire, the animals will be frightened and will leave or go into hiding so it will be more difficult to see them compared to a peaceful jungle.
Ultimately, what we killed and ate, we have to repay. Causes always lead to effects. Effects always follow causes. Whatever your choice is, you will undergo the effect.
On keeping the precept on killing - there is an interesting story below - this is from Section 37 of the Sutra of the 42 sections. Again whatever your decision is it's your choice.Staying Mindful of Moral Precepts Brings Us Close to the Way
The Buddha said, "My disciples may be several thousand miles away from me, but if they remember my moral precepts, they will certainly attain the fruition of the Way."If those who are by my side do not follow my moral precepts, they may see me constantly, but in the end they will not attain the Way."
The thirty-seventh section says that if you believe in the Buddha's precepts, then no matter how far away you are from the Buddha, it is as if you were right next to him. But if you don't believe in and hold the Buddha's precepts, then you may always be by the Buddha's side, but you won't see him and you won't hear the Dharma. This is what the Sixth Patriarch meant when he said, "If you believe in me, you may be 108,000 miles away from me, but it amounts to being right by my side. But if you don't believe in me, although you may be right by my side, it will be the same as if you were 108,000 miles away." That is also the meaning of this section of the Sutra.
The Buddha said, "My disciples may be several thousand miles away from me, but if they remember my moral precepts, they will certainly attain the fruition of the Way." The Buddha said, "Even if my disciples are very distant from me, if they can constantly recollect my precepts and never forget them, and if they can rely on them and maintain them in their cultivation, such disciples will surely attain the fruition of the Way."If those who are by my side do not follow my moral precepts, they may see me constantly, but in the end they will not attain the Way. Someone who is to my left or right may always see me, but if he doesn't cultivate in accord with my precepts, then no matter how he tries, it won't be easy for him to attain the Way.
This section of text makes it clear that if you do what the teachings say, if you rely on the Buddhadharma in your cultivation, then you are a true disciple of the Buddha; you will constantly be in the presence of the Buddha; you will always be studying under the Buddha. If you don't hold the precepts, however, you'll miss the opportunity that is right in front of you.
Once there were two Bhikshus in Varanasi who wanted to make the long journey to Shravasti to see the Buddha. As they walked, they grew more and more thirsty, until they could barely walk any further. They were about to die of thirst. In front of them, they found a little water that had collected in a human skull.One of the Bhikshus took up the skull, drank some of the water, and then turned to give some to the other Bhikshu. The other Bhikshu, seeing that the water was in a skull, and that, moreover, there were many bugs in it, didn't drink it.
The first Bhikshu said, "Why aren't you drinking the water? We are nearly dead of thirst."
The other one answered, "Because the Buddha's precepts say that we can't drink water if there are bugs in it. Although I may die of thirst, I'm not going to drink water with bugs in it. I want to stick to the Buddha's precepts in my cultivation."The first Bhikshu said, "Oh, you're really stupid. If you drink some of the water, you'll be able to go and see the Buddha. If you don't drink it, you'll die of thirst. Don't be so inflexible."
Even after such a rebuke, the other Bhikshu still wouldn't take a drink. The first Bhikshu drank all of the water, and as he walked on he felt very strong. But the second Bhikshu, who hadn't drunk any water, died of thirst along the way.
Because the second Bhikshu had single-mindedly held the precepts, he was reborn in the Trayastrimsa Heaven and was endowed with the blessed appearance of a god. From there he went to see the Buddha, and upon hearing the Buddha speak Dharma for him, he attained the pure Dharma-eye and realized the fruition of Arhatship. Meanwhile, the Bhikshu who had drunk the water from the skull arrived at Shravasti after three more days of travelling. The Bhikshu who had died of thirst saw the Buddha on the night of his death and then realized the fruition. Three days later, the other Bhikshu arrived and saw the Buddha.
The Buddha asked him, "Where did you come from? How many people came with you? Was the trip uneventful?" The Bhikshu told his story to the Buddha in detail: "We came from Varanasi, and the road was long. At one point on the way we were without water, but eventually we found some water that had collected in a skull. I drank some, but my fellow cultivator wouldn't drink it when he saw that there were bugs in it, so he died of thirst. The fact is that he didn't have affinities with the Buddha, and so he died instead of seeing the Buddha. His attachments were too strong."
After the Buddha heard the story, he told the Bhikshu who had died of thirst to come forward. The Buddha said, "That very day he was reborn in the heavens and was endowed with the life span of a god, which is quite long. Then he came to my Dharma assembly, and I spoke Dharma for him. He has already realized the fruition of the Way. You say that he was stupid, but in truth you are the stupid one. You didn't keep the Buddha's precepts, and although you have come to see me, you might as well not have seen me, because your mind isn't true. You aren't sincere enough; you didn't hold the precepts."
So from this episode you can see that, whether or not you are beside the Buddha, what matters is holding to the Buddha's precepts as you cultivate. Then you actually get to see the Buddha. If you don't cultivate according to the precepts, although you may be at the Buddha's side, it's as if you never saw him in the first place.
Thank for your enlightment.
The precepts is not to kill whatever at all cost.
yixioang is good thread started lah,. somany problems. one on money family problem. now this one oct and religious question. but its a good topic to tok about too.
Originally posted by cokeyou:Hahaha!Bohiruci,why bother to defend your mentally ill faith?I already said it is mentally ill to value animals more than a human life.
I share the same sentiment as you when someone told me they can't eat offering food and have to throw away edible food.
Originally posted by yixiang:Hi guys, this is just a curious question that pop up my mind earlier this week- NS related issue
As an Officer Cadet Trainee (OCT), everyone have to go through a 3weeks gruelling Jungle Confidence Course(JCC) in brunei. And I heard that during the JCC period, you will be given a quill and they will not issue you much combat ration. So meaning that you have to go out in the jungle to hunt for wild animals to eat. They give you the quill to keep with you so that in times of extreme hunger you can kill it instantly and satisfy your needs.
Here comes my question, What if the oct personel is a buddhism and have to abstain from killing but in army especially surviving in the jungle they teach you that 'For one to survive, one must die'? If the person kill the quill or any wild animals, he is against his own personal religious beliefs and if he doesn't kill, he is against the organisational order. What must he do and in way perspective view can he sees it as so he doesn't go against his personal religious beliefs neither does he go against the organisational order?
If i am the person, i think i will pray to Buddhas and Bodhisattvas very hard to show me a way... it is possible that something helpful may happen if one is sincere on keeping the precepts.
When the Tibetans came out of Tibet, many of them rather starve than kill. There were whole groups who managed to survive the months of walking and escaping their pursuers and having no food and still rather not kill wildlife for food. It takes mental will for sure and i'm not suggesting we MUST follow suit. But it shows how strong the belief in karma can be.
Lama yeshe also once said if he had to kill someone else to survive, he would rather be killed. I think it just shows the perspective.
I hope none of us will ever face such a dilemma.
Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
I share the same sentiment as you when someone told me they can't eat offering food and have to throw away edible food.
Christianity is not mentally ill and it is more sound than Buddhism which has become a cult in recent years.
What is the 5 precepts?
1 is no killing....2,3...?
Thanks bro and sis.
Originally posted by likeyou:What is the 5 precepts?
1 is no killing....2,3...?
Thanks bro and sis.
The Five
No Killing or Harming of Sentient Life
No Stealing or Taking What is Not Given
No Sexual Misconduct
No False Speech
No Taking of Intoxicants
http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/FivePrecepts/fiveprecepts.html#five
Originally posted by troublemaker2005:yixioang is good thread started lah,. somany problems. one on money family problem. now this one oct and religious question. but its a good topic to tok about too.
so is it good or bad when you say so many problems? lol thats wat forum is for, to discuss topics with people isnt it?
It is bad of course, as when we kill there is always the feeling of hate or dislike accompanying the act. In Buddhism, Loving-Kindness and Compassion are two of the most important central teaching of the religion. When one kills too often, these two virtues will gradually be replace by hate and dislike which is certainly something not any of us want. It is also the reason why one of the livelihoods that Buddhists are told to refrain from getting involved in, is the taking of lives such as that of a butcher.
Whether you will abstain from killing or not, will depend greatly on how religious you are. It is a personal decision.
For NS man, you can take comfort in the fact that national service is not a forever profession unless you intend to make it your career. Even if you do, touch wood, you may not have to be physically involved in the process of killing.
Even if one is not totally able to abstain from killing, try your best to do more charitable acts, it will not only benefit the less fortunate, by do so, we are also nurturing good virtues such as love, kindness and compassion in us.
I would like to ask how to get rid of fear and disgust. For it is because of that that I allowed a bug to be killed, and I feel very bad over it.
Yours is a conflict between your core values as a Buddhist and obligation as a citizen soldier. That compounded by you being trained to lead by example.
Training for war inevitably entail desensitization towards killing. To kill instinctively without hesitation.
Mentally, you can refuse to accept that, but the real test is in the field, you facing your hunger. Maybe you can examine and learn suffering from the experience.
What matters is if you are unable to resist, do not let let desensitize you. Do a rectification of faults on the same day with true remorse,to repair your your vows if you made any.
Originally posted by cokeyou:Hahaha!Bohiruci,why bother to defend your mentally ill faith?I already said it is mentally ill to value animals more than a human life.
Buddhist DON'T value animals lives more than human lives. We aim to cultivate loving kindness towards all sentient beings.
If you feel Buddhist are mentally ill, it due to your arrested development for being unable to understand, respect and develop values like loving kindness and compassion towards all beings.
Originally posted by wisdomeye:
Hi Wis
Thanks very much.
How about smoking?
No sexual misconduct : meaning no rape nor engage in sexual activities?
The others I already get the meaning.
Thanks again.
@Like@You
Originally posted by Beautiful951:<!--StartFragment-->
I would like to ask how to get rid of fear and disgust. For it is because of that that I allowed a bug to be killed, and I feel very bad over it.
<!--EndFragment-->
You could try developing the following: Filiality, loving-kindness, compassion.
Originally posted by likeyou:How about smoking? No sexual misconduct : meaning no rape nor engage in sexual activities?
Smoking is against the 5th precept. It is also a form of intoxicant - except it is breathed in. Smoking may also increase ill-will in non-smokers who have to breathe the smoke.
For 3rd precept: I think the link on Nagarjuna Bodhisattva's Treatise on the Great Perfection of Wisdom Wisdomeye posted is quite good and can explain...
As for the precept against sexual misconduct, if the female is under the protection of the father, the mother, the elder or younger brother, the elder or younger sister, the husband as head of family, a son, the law of the world, or the law of a king, if one violates her, this constitutes sexual misconduct.
Sometimes there are those who, although they are not "under protection" in this sense, are nonetheless under the protection of the Dharma. How is it that one is under the protection of the Dharma? This refers to all women who have left the home life and to those who are householders but who have taken the "one day" precept. This is referred to as being under the protection of the Dharma. If one uses force, or if one uses money, or if one engages in deceptive seduction, or if one has a wife who has taken the precept, who is pregnant or who is nursing an infant, or if one engages in sexual activity involving an inappropriate orifice,-- if one transgresses in such ways, this constitutes sexual misconduct. All sorts of situations like these even extending to the giving of a flower garland to a courtesan as an indication of intent,-- if one transgresses in such ways, this constitutes sexual misconduct. If in all sorts of situations such as this one refrains from taking such actions, this qualifies as not engaging in sexual misconduct.
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My thinking is that the organisation order did not say you cannot eat vegetable and fruit in the jungle. What they wanted is for you to be able survive and sustain your impermanent body with very minimum food, and maintain extremely high level of conscious mind for the well beings of all. The quill can use to kill and also can use to save yourself. The above is a very good example to follow.
Amitofo
Originally posted by likeyou:
Hi Wis
Thanks very much.
How about smoking?
No sexual misconduct : meaning no rape nor engage in sexual activities?
The others I already get the meaning.
Thanks again.
@Like@You
Hi Likeyou,
Smoking is not only against the precept (if one considers it an intoxicant)... but even if you are not Buddhist or not holding any precept, it is very harmful for you spiritually speaking...
I refer you to more info in a prev post
http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/398025
Sexual Misconduct is when one performs the act with a partner who fall under the categories as listed by Zerothought, under certain limiting factors of place, time, persons, methodologies, frequencies and so forth...
You can read about it here on Google ebook
please note that as you go along, you may find people reinterpreting the sexual misconduct precept according to their own convenience, be wary of that because the two quotations i gave come from very learned and realised masters whom many say have direct visions of the Buddhas and deities... and are very strict in their interpretations...( basically, it'd be safe to say that they have their basis for their teachings in the sutras/tantras of the Buddha) so it is best to adopt their definition as it is, even if it might present some difficulties in doing so.