Originally posted by Fugazzi:If one is aware why the need to have all these precepts - is it not a contradiction? Awareness is indifference to the mind's .... Precepts are conditional, imposed and anything existential is beginningless and endless. The past and the future comes in the moment precepts come in. So how can awareness cultivate ...?
Grace, kindness are a by-product of being aware, one's meditative state of being .... one's being choicelessly aware of what is, not a result.
I wrote this months ago in my blog:
...Hi,
The rules first, since it is an easy one.
The
rules are not fixed - Buddha did not set rules in the beginning, but as
time goes by, his community/sangha did foolish things, so the Buddha had
no choice but to set some rules to prevent folly from being repeated.
Buddha's rules were 'subject to revision'.
Now.. I understand
that AF does not have precepts and rules and prefer people to exercise
their common sense. This is also the case in certain schools of Buddhism
- Dzogchen, for example, teaches not blind adherence to rules but to
exercise our awareness.
Even non-buddhist teachings like Eckhart
Tolle also claim that rules are not necessary if one acts with awareness
and wisdom. (not suggesting that Eckhart Tolle is teaching the same
things as AF, just pointing out that the 'no rules' thing is not
perculiar to AF at all)
Of course... that is IF that person has 'awareness' and 'wisdom' to begin with.
Some people just don't! So how do you, for practical purposes, prevent criminals from killing, from stealing things?
You
set up laws. Well, yes, understandably as AF so clearly said, the rules
and laws have not solved the problems of humanity from its roots - the
attachment to the self/Self that leads to the affective system of
craving, anger, harmfulness, etc, the source of all the sufferings of
the world. This is in line with Buddhist understanding.
Yet,
having laws are still necessary because at least it helps maintain some
level of orderliness in society (even though not to the level of
perfection). You can't deny that the vast majority of society are still
un-free, and therefore, quite capable of being harmful.
You can't
expect everyone to attain Actual Freedom immediately - I do not believe
it can be achieved even in ten thousand years time. Certainly not in
our lifetime, I can assure you. So in the meanwhile, while we wait for a
utopian society (in an unreachable future) where everyone becomes
actually free, do we just let society run lawless and let the murders
and rapes go uncontrolled? Do you see my point?
So why do away
with laws and rules? It is necessary, for the time being. It is not the
ultimate solution, I agree, but a practical interim (and imperfect)
solution to some of society's problems. After all who would want to live
in a lawless land? Everyone prefers to live in a lawful, safe,
low-crime society. Tell me honestly: would you even dare let alone want
to live in a lawless society where murders, rape, robbery go unchecked?
Similar
for Buddha - his Arhants were no longer capable of transgressing the
rules (like killing, stealing, etc) even if the rules were non-existent.
Why? They have removed the delusion of a self/Self and the affective
system of craving, anger, harmfulness, fear, etc etc. They can no longer
do harm to themselves and others.
But the rules are necessary for beginners/non-Arhants.
It
is for practical, pragmatic purposes. To safeguard the happiness of
mankind and prevent the world from becoming a living hell, precepts and
rules are still a 'transitory necessity'.
Buddhism has a higher
goal - freedom from all sufferings. Precepts and rules are not going to
achieve that, it only ensures that you do not make your deluded life
even worse - but it does not remove your delusions (of being a
self/Self). Nevertheless, precepts are still helpful for practical
purposes.
Also, precepts help ensure that if we do not become an
Arhant/liberated yet, at least we do not make so much bad karma for
ourselves.... (excerpt cut)
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:I wrote this months ago in my blog:
...Hi,
The rules first, since it is an easy one.
The rules are not fixed - Buddha did not set rules in the beginning, but as time goes by, his community/sangha did foolish things, so the Buddha had no choice but to set some rules to prevent folly from being repeated. Buddha's rules were 'subject to revision'.
Now.. I understand that AF does not have precepts and rules and prefer people to exercise their common sense. This is also the case in certain schools of Buddhism - Dzogchen, for example, teaches not blind adherence to rules but to exercise our awareness.
Even non-buddhist teachings like Eckhart Tolle also claim that rules are not necessary if one acts with awareness and wisdom. (not suggesting that Eckhart Tolle is teaching the same things as AF, just pointing out that the 'no rules' thing is not perculiar to AF at all)
Of course... that is IF that person has 'awareness' and 'wisdom' to begin with.
Some people just don't! So how do you, for practical purposes, prevent criminals from killing, from stealing things?
You set up laws. Well, yes, understandably as AF so clearly said, the rules and laws have not solved the problems of humanity from its roots - the attachment to the self/Self that leads to the affective system of craving, anger, harmfulness, etc, the source of all the sufferings of the world. This is in line with Buddhist understanding.
Yet, having laws are still necessary because at least it helps maintain some level of orderliness in society (even though not to the level of perfection). You can't deny that the vast majority of society are still un-free, and therefore, quite capable of being harmful.
You can't expect everyone to attain Actual Freedom immediately - I do not believe it can be achieved even in ten thousand years time. Certainly not in our lifetime, I can assure you. So in the meanwhile, while we wait for a utopian society (in an unreachable future) where everyone becomes actually free, do we just let society run lawless and let the murders and rapes go uncontrolled? Do you see my point?
So why do away with laws and rules? It is necessary, for the time being. It is not the ultimate solution, I agree, but a practical interim (and imperfect) solution to some of society's problems. After all who would want to live in a lawless land? Everyone prefers to live in a lawful, safe, low-crime society. Tell me honestly: would you even dare let alone want to live in a lawless society where murders, rape, robbery go unchecked?
Similar for Buddha - his Arhants were no longer capable of transgressing the rules (like killing, stealing, etc) even if the rules were non-existent. Why? They have removed the delusion of a self/Self and the affective system of craving, anger, harmfulness, fear, etc etc. They can no longer do harm to themselves and others.
But the rules are necessary for beginners/non-Arhants.
It is for practical, pragmatic purposes. To safeguard the happiness of mankind and prevent the world from becoming a living hell, precepts and rules are still a 'transitory necessity'.
Buddhism has a higher goal - freedom from all sufferings. Precepts and rules are not going to achieve that, it only ensures that you do not make your deluded life even worse - but it does not remove your delusions (of being a self/Self). Nevertheless, precepts are still helpful for practical purposes.
Also, precepts help ensure that if we do not become an Arhant/liberated yet, at least we do not make so much bad karma for ourselves.... (excerpt cut)
Hi AEN,
Well said. Thanks.
Hi Fugazzi,
I wish a path can be as simple as having no-rules and no precepts. However, reality is more complex than that.
IMO, much to the misconception about it, Enlightenment will not take away any sensation, even that of pain. The only thing that it took away is the aversion and suffering caused by not facing the sensation/situation directly/squarely as it IS. If you do not believe me, you can pinch yourself hard now and see if you can have yourself not feel the sensation :)
Precepts works at the level of sensation, eventually. It minimise the occurences of painful sensation, to oneself and to others. The sensation of being cut is painful whether one is enlightened or not. All harm are painful at the level of sensation. It is this, that precepts can minimise.
Originally posted by Fugazzi:What I wrote is not factual. So, I assume it no longer holds true! It is dead! I say that cos truth cannot be caged as it an existential experience of herenow and transcends definitions.Having said that,I cannot say that you are ''wrong'' or ''right'' - it is simply that two persons are partaking of what appears here differently, two planes of perception n differing psychological make-ups - it is subjective experience.
Abdication of accountability of coherence for mutual literal correspondence,
Forward projection of aerial particulates.
probably not very relevant to the main discussion here, but here's my favourite quote.
"IT’S POSSIBLE TO DO GOOD and equally possible to do harm, and so we’re stuck with the necessity of choice and consequence. And no choice can ever be encompassing and conclusive because the moment is a movement and requires continual adaptation and adjustment. We can faithfully adhere to a precept, and yet end up doing irreparable harm. We can never trace the ultimate consequence of our choices, but it’s safe to conclude that whatever we decide to do will be fraught with certain error and fall short of the best intent." --Lin Jensen
Wei Ching,
The instant I decide what should be the end, I am reduced to a vested interest. Seeker I am no more or the seeking is all in vain.
Originally posted by Fugazzi:Wei Ching,
The instant I decide what should be the end, I am reduced to a vested interest. Seeker I am no more or the seeking is all in vain.
No beginning, no end, just a journey. I see a movie, I laugh and I cry, or I bang my chest or I don't laugh and cry' or even bang my chest , still is watching, for I am still watching. As long as I am watching, I am . The journey has not ended.
Watching and allowing it to be without labelling, without judgement without wanting without wishing, most of all not getting attached or identifying with .....Eg,. Intellect is very healthy when it is used, the moment one gets identified with it it is intellectuality. The latter is a barrier, a pond! Intelligence responds to what shows up as ti is in the moment, the capacity to handle that which is. Intelligence is a welling of one's being ... it cannot be acquired. Intellect is acquired from books, teachers, etc ...) and at the most one is going to react. Re-act from the past. Rejecting none one would expereince the balance without trying to balance.
One has to scale the mountain to see the view. The inward journey may reduce one to a nothingness or one may simply ''disappear'' - the fear or that is what seems to belie the resistance to that journey. Dropping ''the self'' is anathema and it least that seems to be the predicament'.
Originally posted by Fugazzi:Watching and allowing it to be without labelling, without judgement without wanting without wishing, most of all not getting attached or identifying with .....Eg,. Intellect is very healthy when it is used, the moment one gets identified with it it is intellectuality. The latter is a barrier, a pond! Intelligence responds to what shows up as ti is in the moment, the capacity to handle that which is. Intelligence is a welling of one's being ... it cannot be acquired. Intellect is acquired from books, teachers, etc ...) and at the most one is going to react. Re-act from the past. Rejecting none one would expereince the balance without trying to balance.
One has to scale the mountain to see the view. The inward journey may reduce one to a nothingness or one may simply ''disappear'' - the fear or that is what seems to belie the resistance to that journey. Dropping ''the self'' is anathema and it least that seems to be the predicament'.
One measure of intelligence is the ability to see things in context and relate. The ability to see smoke as it is, and the fundamental response of "I" to "Others". What does "no self" means to me? The stillness of mind, acknowledging the phenomenon without reifying.
It being what it is, "me" reticent, "me" talking, reacting, and occasionally no "me".
Mind can be likened to a photocopier (it thinks in terms of images, esp of the past and tries to repeat or futurize it and re-label or re-experience it in a different form). Can one visualize something uncertain?
The mirror simply reflects - it does not know I or me or .... The I or me or comes in the very moment evaluation, labelling or when one starts thinking that something is being watched! The moment the evalution or the judging enters the mirror is already distorted by the mind's imposing its meaning or ... Hence, watching is herenow, existential or simply it is not.
Intelligence belongs to the mirroring consciousness; memory to that of the the mind. Memory is one thing. it is not intelligence. The predicament of humanity is that it is equated as intelligence.
I me .. exists cos of one's mind ( sense of self defined).
Of course, the wise one would still for eg use the mind to do or be or partake of an expereince and die to that role or experience. One does not accumulate, one's mirror is dusted off the moment one lets go after that doing or experience.
In other words one partakes of the world (in all its forms and what have you) and yet returns to one's being ''free'' of the world.
When the self is absent one gets to partake of ... in its totality. When the self is absent one is present to the presence of ....
It is the uncertainty of what IS that is the barrier cos the mind cannot reconcile to uncertainty!
Totality is the foundation of being free. It is cos the ''incompleteness'' of that expereince that mind accumulates whatever one sets out to be or do ..... hence the dust gathers on one's being, one's mirroring is distorted.
Ps - mind is a utility use it, but not be used by it. It presupposes one is alert and conscious to that aspect the limitations of the mind esp that of the duality and the ''psychological'' time.
I share opinions views and whether one agrees or not it does not matter. What is true cannot be explained or espoused. Can what is existentially true be defined? When it is - it is simply dead, the past! The wick and the candle is not life - the intensity of its burning is all the difference bet life and living.
Originally posted by Fugazzi:Mind can be likened to a photocopier (it thinks in terms of images, esp of the past and tries to repeat or futurize it and re-label or re-experience it in a different form). Can one visualize something uncertain?
The mirror simply reflects - it does not know I or me or .... The I or me or comes in the very moment evaluation, labelling or when one starts thinking that something is being watched! The moment the evalution or the judging enters the mirror is already distorted by the mind's imposing its meaning or ... Hence, watching is herenow, existential or simply it is not.
Intelligence belongs to the mirroring consciousness; memory to that of the the mind. Memory is one thing. it is not intelligence. The predicament of humanity is that it is equated as intelligence.
I me .. exists cos of one's mind ( sense of self defined).
Of course, the wise one would still for eg use the mind to do or be or partake of an expereince and die to that role or experience. One does not accumulate, one's mirror is dusted off the moment one lets go after that doing or experience.
In other words one partakes of the world (in all its forms and what have you) and yet returns to one's being ''free'' of the world.
When the self is absent one gets to partake of ... in its totality. When the self is absent one is present to the presence of ....
It is the uncertainty of what IS that is the barrier cos the mind cannot reconcile to uncertainty!
Totality is the foundation of being free. It is cos the ''incompleteness'' of that expereince that mind accumulates whatever one sets out to be or do ..... hence the dust gathers on one's being, one's mirroring is distorted.
Ps - mind is a utility use it, but not be used by it. It presupposes one is alert and conscious to that aspect the limitations of the mind esp that of the duality and the ''psychological'' time.
I share opinions views and whether one agrees or not it does not matter. What is true cannot be explained or espoused. Can what is existentially true be defined? When it is - it is simply dead, the past! The wick and the candle is not life - the intensity of its burning is all the difference bet life and living.
We are way off topic!!!
1)Waking state thoughts are sound-like, only conceptual. Sleeping thoughts or dreamstates are visual like, also conceptual in content, for example,you will not see colour if colours are not relevant.
You have explained ... and true or not true, right or wrong - it is your expereince. It is your perception and your projection of what is within you. Can I assume that you are ...? Similarly, my views and ... are mine and whether it is rite or wrong or .... is my perception and projection of what is within me
You are an excuse, anyone is an excuse cos circumstances dont make a person - it reveals one, it reveals what I am all about in my postings here and elsewhere. One is free to accept, reject or ignore!
"We can say to ourselves,
The primary roots are in ourselves:
The secondary roots are in the other. When we understand the factors that led to the other’s behavior, we can respond with help or discipline from a place of compassion.
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