Excerpts from http://www.kenwilber.com/blog/show/48
To help unfold it, here’s a simplified version of the Path of the Great Liberation, which actually has two paths united in it. Start by noticing that you have two basic arenas of awareness: that which is seen, and that which is the Seer, the Witness, your True Self.
Now, you can see your ego, you are aware of it right now. You are aware of the ego or self-contraction, you can feel it in this moment. And you can feel your self-contraction because, in reality, it is an object, not a subject. It is not a real subject or True Self at all. Yet we tend to always be identifying with the ego or self-contraction, which is what I am not, and forget to rest as the Witness, which is what I am. We are the feeling Witness, not the felt ego.
It’s a classic case of mistaken identity, a mistake called samsara, maya, sin, illusion, etc.—and probably given its best, shortest definition by Patanjali, founder of yoga: “Bondage is the identification of the Seer with the instruments of seeing.”
Now both sides of awareness are necessary—the phenomenal or manifest or relative realm of objects, and the ultimate or absolute or nondual realm of the one and only Subject or True Self—the One Self in us all, and the Self of all that is. YOUR True Self is the same True Self in all sentient beings, so by resting in the Witness, you will know the entire Kosmos from within….
(We will come back to this, and I’ll give a very effective experiential exercise for contacting your own True Self right now….)
The True Self is marked by a radical inclusiveness, so radical it is sometimes hard to understand. It embraces everything that is arising with no exceptions whatsoever—ozone hole, car crash, beautiful sunset, terrorist attack, Bach music: all the same. This is why it is often called Mirror Mind. If something good arises, it impartially reflects that with complete nonattachment. If something bad arises, it impartially reflects that, with no aversion at all.
You can notice that part of your awareness right now: clouds float by in the sky, thoughts float by in the mind, sensations float by in the body, sounds float by as well—there is an aspect of your awareness that simply Witnesses or Notices, without judgment or condemnation, everything that is arising. The Mirror Mind is always there, even if we forget it. It witnesses Hitler in precisely the same way it witnesses Mother Teresa. Again, radical inclusion.
On the relative plane, however, judgments are made and should be made. This is the plane where they are relatively real. As Buddha said, “Choose good, avoid evil, this is the path”—the path, that is, in the relative realm of objects.
In the relative realm, more inclusive is better than less inclusive, more depth is better than less depth, more love is better than less love, second tier is better than first tier, more compassion is better than less compassion. In the absolute realm (of your own impartial Witness of all that is arising), all of those are absolutely equal. (As we said, the Mirror Mind reflects Hitler and Teresa equally). But in the relative or phenomenal realm, Teresa is better than Hitler, and so on.
Here is the point: idiot compassion is a confusing of relative and absolute paths. Idiot compassion is not only afraid to ruffle feathers, it is afraid to make judgments and rankings and holarchies and gradations and so on, because it confuses total nonjudgmentalism (which applies only to Mirror Mind) with the realm of objects where judgments should be made. What is supposed to happen is that, resting in Mirror Mind, and reflecting everything equally as it arises, relative judgments arise within that space and are made about things that are better or worse, good or bad, true or false, and so on. So you should feel both a radical impartially (or total inclusion) as the ground of everything arising in your own I AMness or Witness, and some things that arise within all space are definitely judged better and worse than others.
So, both the self-contraction and idiot compassion are cases of mistaken identity, and you can feel—and overcome—this mistake in this very moment, if you follow a few pointing out instructions (which I will give in a moment). As we saw, the ego or self-contraction is merely and actually an object, it’s not what you really are, it’s not even a real subject, it’s just an object, it’s seen, it can’t see anything. Objects can’t see, only subjects can. But we mistake the seen ego for the Real Seer, the True Self—we mistake the temporal ego for our timeless I AMness.
That’s the first mistake of confusing the relative, objective, phenomenal ego for the absolute Self that I AM.
The second mistake is to similarly confuse the radical nonjudgmentalism of the Real Self (or Mirror Mind) with the phenomenal world where judgments should and must be made. Thus, on the relative plane the path is “Do good, avoid evil, this is the path.” On the absolute or nondual plane, however, the path is choiceless awareness, beyond good and evil, reflecting each impartially, or simply resting in the pure Presence of this moment, the simple feeling of Being, the Witness of this and every moment, and let it all come rushing through in radical nonattachment and purest equanimity—the vast and infinite Mirror Mind that, Chung Tzu says, “grasps nothing, seeks nothing, receives but does not keep.”
Both paths are to be practiced together in the genuine nondual Path of the Great Liberation—a Great Liberation that occurs each and every moment—right now—that one’s identity shifts from a false self (the seen ego, the self-contraction) to the True Self (Big Mind or Mirror Mind, the infinite I AMness in each and every sentient being), embracing all that arises in the brilliant clarity and luminosity of the infinite shine of Mirror Mind. That is the aim of the nondual paths of Liberation, and the aim of Integral Life Practice as well.
In ILP, with regard to the relative path, we follow the Prime Directive: work diligently to protect and promote the greatest depth for the greatest span. But in the ultimate or nondual path, we allow everything to be exactly as it is. Choiceless awareness, without judging, condemning, condoning, grasping, or keeping—no accepting or rejecting, no judging or not judging, all in the timeless Now of Mirror Mind.
But to confuse the two paths (as opposed to integrating them) is to wind up missing the truths of both. You apply relative traits to the absolute and end up dualistic (e.g., a realized sage embraces just heaven but never hell) and then both truths actually go to hell. This is the world of idiot compassion, and unfortunately, the very characteristics of the green meme make this confusion extremely common: a spiritual path with Manjushri carrying a wooden spoon instead of the sword of discriminating wisdom (prajna), whereupon depth disappears from the world almost immediately, leaving in its place a placid sea of the herd mentality, holding its breath lest it speak too loudly, ruffle a feather, and find that “the person who caused it must go away”—and in green, everybody is afraid of going away, of uttering a single thing that sets in motion a judgment of real wisdom or compassion.
I will come back to this, as I said, and give those pointing out instructions for the Great Liberation. But I want to quickly point out that, with reference to idiot compassion, I put a few sentences in the post that carried its real message, knowing that those who had eyes of wisdom and compassion, not flatland wisdom and idiot compassion, would see the few sentences in the blog that called to them: “People will make up their own minds. I just wanted them—wanted us—wanted you—to have some other facts and perspectives to take into account when making up your mind… which I hope will be to include both sides, all sides, in a larger picture. I already have moved to do so in my own mind, and I hope that you will too, because there is room for all in Big Mind, in a third-tier embrace of the entire Kosmos. Things float by as clouds in the sky, with effortless ease in the all-inclusive Presence that is witnessing this screen, and this room, and this world, arise in luminous clarity and radiant splendor… and that is why it all rolls off the back so easily, when all is said and done, for all are textures of your very own Self, alone in the Alone….”
Now, as promised, here are some pointing out instructions for realizing I AMness, or the perfect Mirror Mind, the infinite Self that is your own True Self, and the Self of this and all the worlds.
Notice your present awareness. Notice the objects arising in your awareness—the images and thoughts arising in your mind, the feelings and sensations arising in your body, the myriad objects arising around you in the room or environment. All of these are objects arising in your awareness.
Now think about what was in your awareness 5 minutes ago. Most of the thoughts have changed, most of the bodily sensations have changed, and probably most of the environment has changed. But something has not changed. Something in you is the same now as it was 5 minutes ago. What is present now that was present 5 minutes ago?
I AMness. The feeling-awareness of I AMness is still present. I am that ever-present I AMness. That I AMness is present now, it was present a moment ago, it was present a minute ago, it was present 5 minutes ago.
What was present 5 hours ago?
I AMness. That sense of I AMness is an ongoing, self-knowing, self-recognizing, self-validating I AMness. It is present now, it was present 5 hours ago. All my thoughts have changed, all my bodily sensations have changed, my environment has changed, but I AM is ever-present, radiant, open, empty, clear, spacious, transparent, free. Objects have changed, but not this formless I AMness. This obvious and present I AMness is present now as it was present 5 hours ago.
What was present 5 years ago?
I AMness. So many objects have come and gone, so many feelings have come and gone, so many thoughts have come and gone, so many dramas and terrors and loves and hates have come, and stayed a while, and gone. But one thing has not come, and one thing has not gone. What is that? What is the only thing present in your awareness right now that you can remember was present 5 years ago? This timeless, ever-present feeling of I AMness is present now as it was 5 years ago.
What was present 5 centuries ago?
All that is ever-present is I AMness. Every person feels this same I AMness—because it is not a body, it is not a thought, it is not an object, it is not the environment, it is not anything that can be seen, but rather is the ever-present Seer, the ongoing open and empty Witness of all that is arising, in any person, in any world, in any place, at any time, in all the worlds until the end of time, there is only and always this obvious and immediate I AMness. What else could you possibly know? What else does anybody ever know? There is only and always this radiant, self-knowing, self-feeling, self-transcending I AMness, whether present now, 5 minutes ago, 5 hours ago, 5 centuries ago.
5 millennia ago?
Before Abraham was, I AM. Before the universe was, I AM. This is my original Face, the face I had before my parents were born, the face I had before the universe was born, the Face I had for all eternity until I decided to play this round of hide and seek, and get lost in the objects of my own creation.
I will NEVER again pretend that I do not know or feel my own I AMness.
And with that, the game is undone. A million thoughts have come and gone, a million feelings have come and gone, a million objects have come and gone. But one thing has not come, and one thing has not gone: the great Unborn and the great Undying, which never enters or leaves the stream of time, a pure Presence above time, floating in eternity. I am this great, obvious, self-knowing, self-validating, self-liberating I AMness.
Before Abraham was, I AM.
I AM is none other than Spirit in 1st-person, the ultimate, the sublime, the radiant all-creating Self of the entire Kosmos, present in me and you and him and her and them—as the I AMness that each and every one of us feels.
Because in all the known universes, the overall number of I AMs is but one.
Rest as I AMness always, the exact I AMness you feel right now, just as it is, which is Unborn Spirit itself shining in and as you. Assume your personal identity as well—as this or that object, or this or that self, or this and that thing—resting always in the Ground of it All, as this great and completely obvious I AMness, and get up and go on about your day, in the universe I AM created.
And if you want to change the world, change yourself first of all, resting in that great and ever-present Mystery of I AMness while working with the arising world of objects, knowing that ultimately they are not two. Resting in your own I-I, come and join us at I-I, and help that One and Only Self evolve a world that gets better and better, while ever-present I AMness itself remains ever the same. By uniting both the relative and absolute paths, that Great Liberation is yours right now, the birthright and realization of every sentient being since time immemorial, and the Great Liberation that is resting this moment right in the palm of your hand.
It would be best not to use the phrase before abraham,I am.
That's from the bible.
Jesus said before abraham I am.
Nowadays many buddhist/spirituality writer like to quote from bible.
I have buddhist relatives who quoted If you know the tuth the truth will set u free.
He told me Jesus is a zen master. His dharma centre also like to quote from the bible.
Why cant you just use the buddhist phrases and stop quoting from the bible.
Is it because in the west, there's many people familiar with the bible that's why you quoted from the bible? Using bible phrases to share with westerners?
Now I know many dharma centre like to quote from bible even Singapore dharma centre.
Just use your own buddhist sentence or phrases lah.
Funny leh,using bible to quote from and taking it out of context.
There was one who said those who lived by the sword died by the sword, you reap wad u sow is karma teachings.
My buddhsit relative said bible have dharma in it.
My relative dharma centre expert in quoting bible from the dharma centre. They even proclaim Jesus to be Pusa which some dharma centre do in the west.
This is so insulting to us christian,quoting from our book and changing Jesus from messiah to a Pusa.
Singapore is multi racial and religious, taking bible verses and misinterpreting it is like direct insult to us.
Saying Jesus is an enlightened being is like a challenge to the religious harmony in Singapore.
Originally posted by -StarDust-:It would be best not to use the phrase before abraham,I am.
That's from the bible.
Jesus said before abraham I am.
Nowadays many buddhist/spirituality writer like to quote from bible.
I have buddhist relatives who quoted If you know the tuth the truth will set u free.
He told me Jesus is a zen master. His dharma centre also like to quote from the bible.
Why cant you just use the buddhist phrases and stop quoting from the bible.
Is it because in the west, there's many people familiar with the bible that's why you quoted from the bible? Using bible phrases to share with westerners?
Now I know many dharma centre like to quote from bible even Singapore dharma centre.
Just use your own buddhist sentence or phrases lah.
Funny leh,using bible to quote from and taking it out of context.
There was one who said those who lived by the sword died by the sword, you reap wad u sow is karma teachings.
My buddhsit relative said bible have dharma in it.
My relative dharma centre expert in quoting bible from the dharma centre. They even proclaim Jesus to be Pusa which some dharma centre do in the west.
This is so insulting to us christian,quoting from our book and changing Jesus from messiah to a Pusa.
If talking from a Western eg. Christian or talking to a person grounded in Christian beliefs, one must be able to relate the spirituality.
Most Buddhist do not believe Jesus is an evil being, is with honorable intentions,so it is a honor calling Jesus Christ a pusa in order to highlight acts of compassion. You may take exception to that if you please.
Dharma is also wisdom, so it means one can find wisdom in the bible, you can take exception to that also, if you please .
If I wish to communicate with you, I will try to talk in a manner in which you may relate.
However, you may also choose not to understand.
Originally posted by -StarDust-:It would be best not to use the phrase before abraham,I am.
That's from the bible.
Jesus said before abraham I am.
Nowadays many buddhist/spirituality writer like to quote from bible.
I have buddhist relatives who quoted If you know the tuth the truth will set u free.
He told me Jesus is a zen master. His dharma centre also like to quote from the bible.
Why cant you just use the buddhist phrases and stop quoting from the bible.
Is it because in the west, there's many people familiar with the bible that's why you quoted from the bible? Using bible phrases to share with westerners?
Now I know many dharma centre like to quote from bible even Singapore dharma centre.
Just use your own buddhist sentence or phrases lah.
Funny leh,using bible to quote from and taking it out of context.
There was one who said those who lived by the sword died by the sword, you reap wad u sow is karma teachings.
My buddhsit relative said bible have dharma in it.
My relative dharma centre expert in quoting bible from the dharma centre. They even proclaim Jesus to be Pusa which some dharma centre do in the west.
This is so insulting to us christian,quoting from our book and changing Jesus from messiah to a Pusa.
In Buddhism, Pusa means a person who is kind, compassionate and loving (è�©è�¨å¿ƒè‚ ）. Don't you think Jesus has those qualities or you think Jesus is not fit to be a Pusa ? It is with high respect that we address him as Pusa.
Originally posted by -StarDust-:Singapore is multi racial and religious, taking bible verses and misinterpreting it is like direct insult to us.
Saying Jesus is an enlightened being is like a challenge to the religious harmony in Singapore.
May be I should not ask this question here but I'm always very curious about this verse in the bible. Can you help to explain ? AEN may delete this post if you have objection that I ask this question.
Ken Wilber on Christian Mysticism: The Mystic Heart - Part 1- The Supreme Identity
I think Brother Wayne Teasdale is very clear: 1) You need to realize your true identity, 2) You need to let go of the self.
Dissolve the self... what remains is the universal.
Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:May be I should not ask this question here but I'm always very curious over this verse in the bible. Can you help to explain ? AEN may delete this post if you have objection that I ask this question.
Read Bible Matthew 6:33 states, "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."Matthew 7:7 Jesus said, "Seek and you will find.My question : What does it mean above (in red)? Is Jesus asking you to seek and find your own Kingdom of God ?
Yes, check out Ken Wilber's youtube video.
Not many Christians know the mystical truth behind bible nowadays. There are mystics but not so common.
Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:May be I should not ask this question here but I'm always very curious over this verse in the bible. Can you help to explain ? AEN may delete this post if you have objection that I ask this question.
Read Bible Matthew 6:33 states, "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."Matthew 7:7 Jesus said, "Seek and you will find.My question : What does it mean above (in red)? Is Jesus asking you to seek and find your own Kingdom of God ?
This I must ask my pastor first. Thanks for ur questions.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Yes, check out Ken Wilber's youtube video.
Not many Christians know the mystical truth behind bible nowadays. There are mystics but not so common.
AEN in case you don't know a lot of pastor say christian myticism is a contraversial christian denomination. A lot of pastors.
Originally posted by -StarDust-:
AEN in case you don't know a lot of pastor say christian myticism is a contraversial christian denomination. A lot of pastors.
Which shows their total ignorance of what mysticism is about. As I said, mysticism is not a denomination.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Which shows their total ignorance of what mysticism is about. As I said, mysticism is not a denomination.
My pastor has a Degree in Theology. He does not agree with it. Sorry if I offend u as a church member we learn from our pastor.
Degree in theology doesnt necessarily means he has studied deeply into mysticism.
Anyway sidetrack... this morning an American friend just sent me an article on Christian Mysticism.
http://www.chrmysticaloutreach.com/introduction.html
Excerpt:
Through the action of the Holy Spirit, on earth or in the heavens, it is the innate impulse (the grace of God) and natural evolution of the soul to eventually burn away the dust, look to its true nature and find that it is not the substance of creation after all, but rather “I am that” greater reality and individualized Infinite Consciousness behind the personality that I have dreamed myself to be when still (looking through the glass darkly). As an inseparatable part of Infinite Consciousness, as a wave in the ocean of infinite consciousness that is God, each soul exists as one of the countless individualizations existing within the whole. Each soul will eventually come to realize the simple truth that Moses spoke: “I am that” and will come to rest as “I am”.
Extending everywhere, within and as everything, Divine Consciousness (God) is all there is, ever has been, ever will or can be, and souls as well as all of creation as individualization's of and within It, are not now, never have been and never can be separate or apart from the whole of It. The soul as well as all manifest creation would “immediately be annihilated and cease to exist.” if Divine Consciousness was not it. The truth is that only Divine Consciousness exists. All things are extensions of the One Thing. There is only God.
Nicholas of Cusa, (1401 to 1464) writes: "From the infinity of your mercy, I see, O Lord, that you are infinity embracing all things. There is nothing that exists outside you, but all things in you are not other than you. You teach me, Lord, how otherness, which is not in you, does not exist in itself, nor can it exist."
St Symeon, The New Theologian, (949 to 1022) writes: "How then was the Word everywhere before making the world and, when He had made it, how was He shining in it without the world comprehending Him? Pay careful attention: God "Who is everywhere present and fills all things" was not, Scripture says, separated from it by location when He created this sensible world, but by the nature of the glory of His divinity, it being evident that nothing created approached or comprehended Him at all. Indeed, being inseparable from all He is as clearly in all."
Echoing the Christian mystic’s understanding of the nature of God the Hindu scriptures repeatedly say, THOU ART THAT
St. Catherine of Siena, (1347 to 1380) speaking to God writes: You, eternal Trinity, are a deep sea: The more I enter you, the more I discover, and the more I discover, the more I seek you. You are insatiable, you in whose depth the soul is sated yet remains always hungry for you, thirsty for you, eternal Trinity, longing to see you with the light in your light.
You are a fire always burning but never consuming; you are a fire consuming in your heat all the soul's selfish love; you are a fire lifting all chill and giving light. In your light you have made me know your truth: You are that light beyond all light who gives the mind's eye supernatural light in such fullness and perfection that you bring clarity even to the light of faith. In that faith I see that my soul has life, and in that light receives you who are Light...
Truly this light is a sea, for it nourishes the soul in you, peaceful sea, eternal Trinity..... This water is a mirror in which you, eternal Trinity, grant me knowledge; for when I look into this mirror, holding it in the hand of love, it shows me myself, as your creation, in you, and you in me through the union you have brought about of the Godhead with our humanity.
Is the wave (the soul) the same as the whole of the ocean (God) or is the whole of the ocean simply the wave? After all, they are the same light, the same substance, the same being and consciousness. (In most things) When I have rested in any of the three aspects of the trinity, that is the Father, Christ or Holy Spirit it has been like being a wave resting in an infinite ocean of light. This light of Divine Consciousness appears continuous and infinite, enveloping all things. In my own humble experiences with the three different aspects of God, I have never found that there is a point where the light that is the soul ends and the light that is God begins. It seems to be one continuous light whose understanding and direct experience of is only limited by how much we have limited our own consciousness.
Take the example of the ocean. In the whole of it, you cannot isolate any of its waves from the body from which they come, the body that supports them and upon which they owe their existence. Their substance cannot be removed and isolated and have them remain waves. Waves are more like impulses created by the wind or other creative forces that as impulses travel across the surface of the sea. You must realize that the particles of ocean water do not travel the thousands of miles from land to land that make up the birth (individualization) and death (reabsorbtion into the whole) that is the lifespan of a wave; that only the impulses travel and can be said to be waves. The waves have no substance of their own that they can say this is me and not the ocean. Take away the wind or the other creative impulses and what happens? Is not the whole of the ocean still there? Not one particle of it is missing but the waves cease to exist.
The same is true of the soul. There is no point at which you can isolate the soul's being from the whole of God. Like a wave, the soul is an impulse created by the wind of God that rides upon the surface of the body of Divine Consciousness. The saint's who have directly experienced God repeatedly tell us that the soul has not substance of its own that it can say this is me and not God. If the Wind of God should stop blowing, what happens? The whole of Divine Consciousness is still there. Not one particle is missing but the impulse, the manifested divine consciousness returns to formlessness, returns to that point in time before manifestation and souls as well as all else that is manifest as the heavens and earth will have ceased to exist.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Degree in theology doesnt necessarily means he has studied deeply into mysticism.
Anyway sidetrack... this morning an American friend just sent me an article on Christian Mysticism.
http://www.chrmysticaloutreach.com/introduction.html
Excerpt:
Through the action of the Holy Spirit, on earth or in the heavens, it is the innate impulse (the grace of God) and natural evolution of the soul to eventually burn away the dust, look to its true nature and find that it is not the substance of creation after all, but rather “I am that” greater reality and individualized Infinite Consciousness behind the personality that I have dreamed myself to be when still (looking through the glass darkly). As an inseparatable part of Infinite Consciousness, as a wave in the ocean of infinite consciousness that is God, each soul exists as one of the countless individualizations existing within the whole. Each soul will eventually come to realize the simple truth that Moses spoke: “I am that” and will come to rest as “I am”.
Extending everywhere, within and as everything, Divine Consciousness (God) is all there is, ever has been, ever will or can be, and souls as well as all of creation as individualization's of and within It, are not now, never have been and never can be separate or apart from the whole of It. The soul as well as all manifest creation would “immediately be annihilated and cease to exist.” if Divine Consciousness was not it. The truth is that only Divine Consciousness exists. All things are extensions of the One Thing. There is only God.
Nicholas of Cusa, (1401 to 1464) writes: "From the infinity of your mercy, I see, O Lord, that you are infinity embracing all things. There is nothing that exists outside you, but all things in you are not other than you. You teach me, Lord, how otherness, which is not in you, does not exist in itself, nor can it exist."
St Symeon, The New Theologian, (949 to 1022) writes: "How then was the Word everywhere before making the world and, when He had made it, how was He shining in it without the world comprehending Him? Pay careful attention: God "Who is everywhere present and fills all things" was not, Scripture says, separated from it by location when He created this sensible world, but by the nature of the glory of His divinity, it being evident that nothing created approached or comprehended Him at all. Indeed, being inseparable from all He is as clearly in all."
Echoing the Christian mystic’s understanding of the nature of God the Hindu scriptures repeatedly say, THOU ART THAT
St. Catherine of Siena, (1347 to 1380) speaking to God writes: You, eternal Trinity, are a deep sea: The more I enter you, the more I discover, and the more I discover, the more I seek you. You are insatiable, you in whose depth the soul is sated yet remains always hungry for you, thirsty for you, eternal Trinity, longing to see you with the light in your light.
You are a fire always burning but never consuming; you are a fire consuming in your heat all the soul's selfish love; you are a fire lifting all chill and giving light. In your light you have made me know your truth: You are that light beyond all light who gives the mind's eye supernatural light in such fullness and perfection that you bring clarity even to the light of faith. In that faith I see that my soul has life, and in that light receives you who are Light...
Truly this light is a sea, for it nourishes the soul in you, peaceful sea, eternal Trinity..... This water is a mirror in which you, eternal Trinity, grant me knowledge; for when I look into this mirror, holding it in the hand of love, it shows me myself, as your creation, in you, and you in me through the union you have brought about of the Godhead with our humanity.
Is the wave (the soul) the same as the whole of the ocean (God) or is the whole of the ocean simply the wave? After all, they are the same light, the same substance, the same being and consciousness. (In most things) When I have rested in any of the three aspects of the trinity, that is the Father, Christ or Holy Spirit it has been like being a wave resting in an infinite ocean of light. This light of Divine Consciousness appears continuous and infinite, enveloping all things. In my own humble experiences with the three different aspects of God, I have never found that there is a point where the light that is the soul ends and the light that is God begins. It seems to be one continuous light whose understanding and direct experience of is only limited by how much we have limited our own consciousness.
Take the example of the ocean. In the whole of it, you cannot isolate any of its waves from the body from which they come, the body that supports them and upon which they owe their existence. Their substance cannot be removed and isolated and have them remain waves. Waves are more like impulses created by the wind or other creative forces that as impulses travel across the surface of the sea. You must realize that the particles of ocean water do not travel the thousands of miles from land to land that make up the birth (individualization) and death (reabsorbtion into the whole) that is the lifespan of a wave; that only the impulses travel and can be said to be waves. The waves have no substance of their own that they can say this is me and not the ocean. Take away the wind or the other creative impulses and what happens? Is not the whole of the ocean still there? Not one particle of it is missing but the waves cease to exist.
The same is true of the soul. There is no point at which you can isolate the soul's being from the whole of God. Like a wave, the soul is an impulse created by the wind of God that rides upon the surface of the body of Divine Consciousness. The saint's who have directly experienced God repeatedly tell us that the soul has not substance of its own that it can say this is me and not God. If the Wind of God should stop blowing, what happens? The whole of Divine Consciousness is still there. Not one particle is missing but the impulse, the manifested divine consciousness returns to formlessness, returns to that point in time before manifestation and souls as well as all else that is manifest as the heavens and earth will have ceased to exist.
Thanks for ur articles but I am into mainstream Christianlity but not myticism.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-mysticism.html
Question: "What is Christian mysticism?"
Answer: The term "Christian mystic" is an oxymoron. Mysticism is not the experience of a Christian. Whereas Christian doctrine maintains that God dwells in all Christians and that they can experience God directly through belief in Jesus, Christian mysticism aspires to apprehend spiritual truths inaccessible through intellectual means, typically by emulation of Christ. The Bible tells us that Christ-likeness is achieved only by dying to self—not by self-effort at emulating anyone—and that spiritual truth is discerned through the intellect as guided by the indwelling Holy Spirit, who lives in all believers (John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2:14).
The closest valid experience of a Christian that might resemble mysticism to an unbelieving observer is when the Christian is filled with the Holy Spirit. For Christians, it is evident that the extraordinary wisdom, boldness, understanding, strength, etc. that such spiritual believers demonstrate is the result of being filled with the Spirit, as it is set forth in the Bible. Unbelievers cannot correctly comprehend such things. The Bible tells us why: "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: 'For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?' But we have the mind of Christ "(1 Corinthians 2:16).
Consciousness of God is part of the common definition of the mystic’s experience, but the only valid experience of this nature for the Christian is that which is allowed according to Scripture. "The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children" (Romans 8:16). Most modern mystical experiences suggest either things that don't really have much substance (make no meaningful contribution to the understanding of corporeal life) or things that would appear to challenge Evangelical Bible doctrine, which invalidates the experience.
The closest biblical account that an unbeliever might conclude was a mystical experience might be the Apostle Paul's Damascus Road experience (Acts 22:1-21) or the experience he described in 2 Corinthians: "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows—was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell" (2 Corinthians 12:2-4).
As we examine this account from a Christian perspective, however, we notice particularly that Paul makes it clear God would not allow him to give the details of that experience. Thus it would hardly be reasonable for us to believe that God would be willing to divulge spiritual truth by the manner in which mystics seem to flaunt their experiences. It is His will to declare spiritual truth through the Apostles of the Church by the vehicle of the Holy Scriptures. "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth" (John 17:17). "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message" (John 17:20). God said, “my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge” (Hosea 4:6), not from lack of a mystical experience.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Which shows their total ignorance of what mysticism is about. As I said, mysticism is not a denomination.
But many pastors don't recgonise them. All the pastors I know don't recognise christian myticism.
Originally posted by -StarDust-:
But many pastors don't recgonise them. All the pastors I know don't recognise christian myticism.
Because
1) They don't have mystical experiences and realizations. Those who have, like me, will not be able to deny what they have realized. They will have utter certainty.
2) They don't know much about mysticism.
The article you quoted above shows very very distorted understandings of mysticism. But this is not the right place for me to argue about Christianity.
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Because
1) They don't have mystical experiences and realizations. Those who have, like me, will not be able to deny what they have realized. They will have utter certainty.
2) They don't know much about mysticism.
The article you quoted above shows very very little, and distorted, understandings of mysticism. But this is not the right place for me to argue about Christianity.
Ok ok afterall a very small percentage of christians are mystics.
I felt compelled to answer you because my pastor thinks that christian mystics are contraversial. As a christian I felt compelled to answer you back in matters we disagree on.
Question: "What is Christian mysticism?"
Answer: The term "Christian mystic" is an oxymoron. Mysticism is not the experience of a Christian. Whereas Christian doctrine maintains that God dwells in all Christians and that they can experience God directly through belief in Jesus, Christian mysticism aspires to apprehend spiritual truths inaccessible through intellectual means, typically by emulation of Christ. The Bible tells us that Christ-likeness is achieved only by dying to self—not by self-effort at emulating anyone—and that spiritual truth is discerned through the intellect as guided by the indwelling Holy Spirit, who lives in all believers (John 16:13;1 Corinthians 2:14).
In your own context, do you accept that you apprehended god through intellectual means, how , when, what is god? Through intellectual means then it should not be a problem, please do tell !
Christ-likeness is only achieved by dying of self, how is the dying, what is self ? If the indwells in a person, what is the holy spirit, does it rises from within or without. How does exist within the person? Does it goes in and out as it pleases, or upon belief, dwells permanently within you never to leave?
Originally posted by Weychin:Question: "What is Christian mysticism?"
Answer: The term "Christian mystic" is an oxymoron. Mysticism is not the experience of a Christian. Whereas Christian doctrine maintains that God dwells in all Christians and that they can experience God directly through belief in Jesus, Christian mysticism aspires to apprehend spiritual truths inaccessible through intellectual means, typically by emulation of Christ. The Bible tells us that Christ-likeness is achieved only by dying to self—not by self-effort at emulating anyone—and that spiritual truth is discerned through the intellect as guided by the indwelling Holy Spirit, who lives in all believers (John 16:13;1 Corinthians 2:14).In your own context, do you accept that you apprehended god through intellectual means, how , when, what is god? Through intellectual means then it should not be a problem, please do tell !
Christ-likeness is only achieved by dying of self, how is the dying, what is self ? If the indwells in a person, what is the holy spirit, does it rises from within or without. How does exist within the person? Does it goes in and out as it pleases, or upon belief, dwells permanently within you never to leave?
Ok this weekend I will ask a more learned pastor who knows a lot of things.
I will ask him about it.
The closest valid experience of a Christian that might resemble mysticism to an unbelieving observer is when the Christian is filled with the Holy Spirit. For Christians, it is evident that the extraordinary wisdom, boldness, understanding, strength, etc. that such spiritual believers demonstrate is the result of being filled with the Spirit, as it is set forth in the Bible. Unbelievers cannot correctly comprehend such things. The Bible tells us why: "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: 'For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?' But we have the mind of Christ "(1 Corinthians 2:16).
Please come forth and let flow your extraordinary wisdom, boldness, understanding, strength, etc.. that the greatness of god may be there for all to see, because for you, upon belief of god, dwells the holy spirit. Unbelievers , may not know god, if he/she sees them, but extraordinary wisdom, boldness, understanding, strength, etc. , is this discernable to everybody!
Originally posted by -StarDust-:
Ok this weekend I will ask a more learned pastor who knows a lot of things.I will ask him about it.
You are one of god, the father, son and the holy ghost dwells in you! Speak forth! For you are one of god!
Originally posted by Weychin:You are one of god, the father, son and the holy ghost dwells in you! Speak forth! For you are one of god!
huh? wad u meant?
Consciousness of God is part of the common definition of the mystic’s experience, but the only valid experience of this nature for the Christian is that which is allowed according to Scripture. "The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children" (Romans 8:16). Most modern mystical experiences suggest either things that don't really have much substance (make no meaningful contribution to the understanding of corporeal life) or things that would appear to challenge Evangelical Bible doctrine, which invalidates the experience.
If I am my father's son,born of him, a fact being a fact,that I am of him, inheritance bestowed by virtue of being his son, irregardless of whether belief or disbelief .