Happy Vesak Day
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happy beloved vesak day to fellow buddhists.
hope everyone can gain wisdom and obtain nirvana!
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Originally posted by jinsei:
Was the introduction of exotic species PURELY due to animal liberation; not due to people using these species as food for game fish or some (Buddhists/non-Buddhists) simply throwing away their pets? Anyway, how could you simply conclude that the individuals performing animal liberation are just throwing away "unwanted pets"? Have you seen ALL the animal liberation acts by individuals?
As for your final point, if you have read even one or two Buddhist books on animal liberation, you should know that we are encouraged to make liberation unpredictable and also not to keep the animals until a specific time for liberation! My thoughts? I think that people should at least do some basic research before commenting.
Indeed, the environment is very important, so much so that a more thorough study should be conducted and appropriate prevention measures formulated; instead of simplistically pushing the blame.
I am not against animal liberation, if you are unable to read the lines.
Again, guess you never heard of the nile perch in Lake Victoria, cane toads or rabbits, feral dog or cats and even hornets in Australia or New Zealand.
What about killer bees in the US or fire ants in Christmas Islands?
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Originally posted by Weychin:
I am not against animal liberation, if you are unable to read the lines.
Again, guess you never heard of the nile perch in Lake Victoria, cane toads or rabbits, feral dog or cats and even hornets in Australia or New Zealand.
What about killer bees in the US or fire ants in Christmas Islands?
So the introduction of these species were due to animal liberation?
If not, seems as if you are grasping at straws, trying to pull in anything that can discredit animal liberation. For someone claiming to be "not against animal liberation", this kind of action is contradictory. In addition, you clearly have not read any of the animal liberation books, as evident in your avoidance of my charge in my previous post.
Now, this is not a matter of whether or not you are against animal liberation but that you are trying to propagate a view despite having insufficient evidence or knowledge - you did not even know the standard animal liberation practice of Buddhist organisations/individual Buddhists. This brings the question of why you are doing this. Can you answer this directly without trying to sidestep?
If you seriously care for the environment, shouldn't a more thorough study should be conducted and appropriate prevention measures formulated; instead of simplistically pushing the blame?
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Originally posted by jinsei:
It would have been a very Happy Vesak Day indeed, had it not been slightly marred by the Channel 8 news. It once again emphasised that animal liberation has decreased and no longer the focus of some temples.
Now, is animal liberation really as bad as portrayed? Where did they get the statistics and how was the sample size derived?
How many people do you see liberating animals at the beach everyday? More than the people fishing there (5 or 6 everyday I think)? I think there are more people fishing at any time than people freeing animals and yet, animal liberation is been portrayed in a bad light. Is fishing really more environmentally friendly?
I thought because of the oil spill incident - some life liberation activities are cancelled.
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No, it is due to introduction of animals to the wild.
The release of animal, whether altruistic or otherwise, implies releasing the animals to the wild, you are side stepping my concerns and taken it as a personal attack against you, perhaps of your vested interest!
As of now, you have not demonstrated your interest in the impact on the sentient beings that are going to affected by your actions, eg. the animals being released, and the animals residing in the locality of release. Yes I have not read of books on animal release, here I expect you to share your insights. However, you are more concerned with the act of animal liberation than the fate of the animals.
I am a Buddhist, and I am trying to empathize with sufferings caused to animals ! I 've kept enough pets to know how fragile life is! You have failed in justifying your arguments, as you are unable to deliberate the considerations of releasing any particular animal in a current environment.
I propose you impart your expertise over my opinions; which is what I have offered,opinions! Please illustrate the points to consider, when releasing an animal. Should I pick a alien animal for you or you pick one yourself?.
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Hi Weychin,
Hmmm i happen to know that a temple cancelled the life liberation activity due to oil spill incident.
I see ur points - introducing other species ( esp in large quantity ) will affect the ecological balance right?
Sometime, life liberation can be done appropriately. I have attended some life liberation activities involving fishes and crabs before. I can't really say i represent the organisers but from my own understanding....
The organiser has been doing for some years and they know what they are doing. They understand what are the appropriate conditions and where to release those fishes/crabs... these fishes will eventually swim away to the sea or other places. If we don't save those animals, they will surely be eaten by us. So life liberation is about 'saving life'. The best like what u say is to become a vegetarian.
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Originally posted by Weychin:
No, it is due to introduction of animals to the wild.
The release of animal, whether altruistic or otherwise, implies releasing the animals to the wild, you are side stepping my concerns and taken it as a personal attack against you, perhaps of your vested interest!
As of now, you have not demonstrated your interest in the impact on the sentient beings that are going to affected by your actions, eg. the animals being released, and the animals residing in the locality of release. Yes I have not read of books on animal release, here I expect you to share your insights. However, you are more concerned with the act of animal liberation than the fate of the animals.
I am a Buddhist, and I am trying to empathize with sufferings caused to animals ! I 've kept enough pets to know how fragile life is! You have failed in justifying your arguments, as you are unable to deliberate the considerations of releasing any particular animal in a current environment.
I propose you impart your expertise over my opinions; which is what I have offered,opinions! Please illustrate the points to consider, when releasing an animal. Should I pick a alien animal for you or you pick one yourself?.
So now you are not saying that you are "not against animal liberation"? Now you are saying that you emphatise with sufferings caused to animals? Is this your final stand? Then, why did you change your stand from concern to environment to concern about the suffering of the animals? Is this merely to avoid my question - if you seriously care for the environment, shouldn't a more thorough study should be conducted and appropriate prevention measures formulated; instead of simplistically pushing the blame?
With regards to liberated animals suffering, do you mean they would not suffer if we chop or burn or boil them? By the way, the animal liberation activities normally release animals that are about to be killed for food; rarely pets.
Anyway, you have once again sidestep my main issue - people portraying animal liberation in bad light without sufficient evidence. Why do you do this?
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Originally posted by Isis:
I thought because of the oil spill incident - some life liberation activities are cancelled.
This point is not stated in the news. Instead it just simply repeated that animal liberation has decreased and no longer the focus of some temples. -
Well, during Vesak Day celebration,there are many activities such as 3-steps- 1 bows etv etc and not just focus on life liberation all this while.
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For your information, I have participated in animal liberation in the religious context, and I have also released animals to prevent it from becoming food on the table!
In order to find a suitable location, in need to look for silty freshwater environment which afford the animal it's natural way of getting food, ambush, concealment in the sand, clear water to allow clear vision of prey, available prey and sufficient shallow water level for it reach to the surface to breathe. For that, I have to deep in a forested area by foot for 1 hour.
I am not against animal liberation, I am against irresponsible animal release!
If you want show that animal release is not harmful, act in responsible manner, more importantly,show that animal liberation is done in responsible manner by responsible, mature, rational people.
For example when releasing mud crabs, typical habitat is the mangrove, estuarine areas within the surf line. Fishes may be pelagic or benthic, fully saltwater or euryhaline. Where and when to release them will determine mortality rates.
For proponents of animal liberation, why don't you start a new topic to illustrate the proper responsible and mature manner of releasing animals acceptable to all? Make friends, not adversaries !
If we cannot even concur on this point, to show animal release can be done with care and responsibilty, you are wasting time.
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Originally posted by jinsei:
So now you are not saying that you are "not against animal liberation"? Now you are saying that you emphatise with sufferings caused to animals? Is this your final stand? Then, why did you change your stand from concern to environment to concern about the suffering of the animals? Is this merely to avoid my question - if you seriously care for the environment, shouldn't a more thorough study should be conducted and appropriate prevention measures formulated; instead of simplistically pushing the blame?
With regards to liberated animals suffering, do you mean they would not suffer if we chop or burn or boil them? By the way, the animal liberation activities normally release animals that are about to be killed for food; rarely pets.
Anyway, you have once again sidestep my main issue - people portraying animal liberation in bad light without sufficient evidence. Why do you do this?
What is the intention in animal liberation? How stressed are the animal before release?
Are the animals, if bred in captivity, able to forage for food, what is your documented mortality rate of animals released?
Was it the ideal habitat and range, population density for the animal released,?
If the animals cannot survive, what is the point.
On the other hand, should the release animals thrive, how do it affect the indigenious species. Does it contribute to their decline? Where are the documented figures?
Tell me how YOU would about releasing and we shall see whether it has been done in a responsible manner!
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Originally posted by Isis:
Hi Weychin,
Hmmm i happen to know that a temple cancelled the life liberation activity due to oil spill incident.
I see ur points - introducing other species ( esp in large quantity ) will affect the ecological balance right?
Sometime, life liberation can be done appropriately. I have attended some life liberation activities involving fishes and crabs before. I can't really say i represent the organisers but from my own understanding....
The organiser has been doing for some years and they know what they are doing. They understand what are the appropriate conditions and where to release those fishes/crabs... these fishes will eventually swim away to the sea or other places. If we don't save those animals, they will surely be eaten by us. So life liberation is about 'saving life'. The best like what u say is to become a vegetarian.
Thank you, now if animal release is done in a responsible, mindful manner, and made known, is'nt it more helpful!
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Originally posted by Weychin:
What is the intention in animal liberation? How stressed are the animal before release?
Are the animals, if bred in captivity, able to forage for food, what is your documented mortality rate of animals released?
Was it the ideal habitat and range, population density for the animal released,?
If the animals cannot survive, what is the point.
On the other hand, should the release animals thrive, how do it affect the indigenious species. Does it contribute to their decline? Where are the documented figures?
Tell me how YOU would about releasing and we shall see whether it has been done in a responsible manner!
Why do you keep on sidestepping my main issue - evidence? If you insist that animal liberation is bad for the environment and animals themselves, the onus is on you to prove it.
However, all you have done is to shift from stand to stand while avoiding my call for evidence and critical thinking. It seems as if you are trying to hide that fact that the main stand of animal liberation opponents is flimsy to begin with - there is simply not enough concrete evidence supporting the argument.
Shall we have put all our posts into a separate thread for debating on the reasoning behind the argument propagated by the animal liberation opponents? Can moderator help? Thanks.
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TBC @ Animal Liberation debate
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An observation in Singapore context....tell me is it spiritual or superstition?
I saw in one of the housing estate the night before Vesak day they had couple dress in Heaven Emperor and Empress with lion dance possion.
i saw in the background there is the gate of hell.....i supposed this is the reposed of the Soul from Hell to Heaven. Taking it is a day of Nirvana.
On Vesak day i saw there was a lot of people standing outside a store under HDB right opposite wet market/hawker food center. i supposed they have a Golden buddha in it. There must have some ceremonial that day. I didn't hear people chanting or praying.
So how does one distinct themselve the knowledge of symbolic act vs spiritual act? Because i think the true nature is that one is gaining wisdom on Nirvana vs superstition.
I got a sense that Singaporean have a tendency to focus on the ritual....rather than the teaching. And I don't even quiet understand making the link between Vesak day with the Heavenly Emperor and Empress.
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Originally posted by Weychin:
For your information, I have participated in animal liberation in the religious context, and I have also released animals to prevent it from becoming food on the table!
In order to find a suitable location, in need to look for silty freshwater environment which afford the animal it's natural way of getting food, ambush, concealment in the sand, clear water to allow clear vision of prey, available prey and sufficient shallow water level for it reach to the surface to breathe. For that, I have to deep in a forested area by foot for 1 hour.
I am not against animal liberation, I am against irresponsible animal release!
If you want show that animal release is not harmful, act in responsible manner, more importantly,show that animal liberation is done in responsible manner by responsible, mature, rational people.
For example when releasing mud crabs, typical habitat is the mangrove, estuarine areas within the surf line. Fishes may be pelagic or benthic, fully saltwater or euryhaline. Where and when to release them will determine mortality rates.
For proponents of animal liberation, why don't you start a new topic to illustrate the proper responsible and mature manner of releasing animals acceptable to all? Make friends, not adversaries !
If we cannot even concur on this point, to show animal release can be done with care and responsibilty, you are wasting time.
i thought the entire point of releasing animal is really symbolic act to stop the perpetual cycle of killing .....rather than save the animal day cause most likely the animal will get sick in this city state and die. Even in our coastal when was a last time Singaporean ever caught a giant Crab on our beach whatever release into our coast would have get sick and die?
But isn't buddhist teaching contemplating the notion of birth, sick and die.
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Originally posted by Arapahoe:
i thought the entire point of releasing animal is really symbolic act to stop the perpetual cycle of killing .....rather than save the animal day cause most likely the animal will get sick in this city state and die. Even in our coastal when was a last time Singaporean ever caught a giant Crab on our beach whatever release into our coast would have get sick and die?
But isn't buddhist teaching contemplating the notion of birth, sick and die.
It is also an act of compassion.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
It is also an act of compassion.
Oh yes sure.....
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Originally posted by Arapahoe:
An observation in Singapore context....tell me is it spiritual or superstition?
I saw in one of the housing estate the night before Vesak day they had couple dress in Heaven Emperor and Empress with lion dance possion.
i saw in the background there is the gate of hell.....i supposed this is the reposed of the Soul from Hell to Heaven. Taking it is a day of Nirvana.
On Vesak day i saw there was a lot of people standing outside a store under HDB right opposite wet market/hawker food center. i supposed they have a Golden buddha in it. There must have some ceremonial that day. I didn't hear people chanting or praying.
So how does one distinct themselve the knowledge of symbolic act vs spiritual act? Because i think the true nature is that one is gaining wisdom on Nirvana vs superstition.
I got a sense that Singaporean have a tendency to focus on the ritual....rather than the teaching. And I don't even quiet understand making the link between Vesak day with the Heavenly Emperor and Empress.
What you saw is not Buddhism. It is Chinese folk tradition, or Taoism. -
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
What you saw is not Buddhism. It is Chinese folk tradition, or Taoism.
any reason why no buddhist education on this topics about the different between folk tradtion vs buddhist teaching.....? Because they are borrowing buddhist tradition into their folklord.
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Originally posted by Arapahoe:
any reason why no buddhist education on this topics about the different between folk tradtion vs buddhist teaching.....? Because they are borrowing buddhist tradition into their folklord.
Soul from hell to heaven, heaven emperor and empress, these sounds very Taoist to me. What made you think they are Buddhist?
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Soul from hell to heaven, heaven emperor and empress, these sounds very Taoist to me. What made you think they are Buddhist?
why would they pick Vesak Day? -
Originally posted by Arapahoe:
why would they pick Vesak Day?Maybe they pick all kinds of days...
Anyway Chinese folk tradition people worship everything including Buddha, Bodhisattvas, Taoist gods, etc.
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Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
Maybe they pick all kinds of days...
Anyway Chinese folk tradition people worship everything including Buddha, Bodhisattvas, Taoist gods, etc.
please they did not pick all kinds of days, the community Tent was setup on Vesak Day....Sing folks like to borrow the notion of Nirvada into their believe system. And than they picked and choose the easy way out as if it is a buffet spread.
I just think that it is so misleading and contradict to the teaching of buddhist especially those folks who is searching for spiritual answer.
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Originally posted by Arapahoe:
please they did not pick all kinds of days, the community Tent was setup on Vesak Day....Sing folks like to borrow the notion of Nirvada into their believe system. And than they picked and choose the easy way out as if it is a buffet spread.
I just think that it is so misleading and contradict to the teaching of buddhist especially those folks who is searching for spiritual answer.
Yes I agree... a lot of these things are very misleading.