a question regarding precepts...
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Hi fellow buddhists,
I think everybody understands one of the precepts is not to steal. Stealing, as everyone know, is to take away other's possessions without approval...
I think that including plucking a flower from a nature park, even if no ones owns the park.
Does downloading music considered stealing? Same goes to watching movies online etc ...
Since technology has greatly improved, should the definition of the precepts change according to times.....?
Thanks for your view... I have not taken precepts yet.... When I thought of Buddha's theories of the 5 senses, ear(hearing) which craves for pleasant sound, desires grow in the mind... how true..
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Originally posted by 2009novice:
Hi fellow buddhists,
I think everybody understands one of the precepts is not to steal. Stealing, as everyone know, is to take away other's possessions without approval...
I think that including plucking a flower from a nature park, even if no ones owns the park.
Does downloading music considered stealing? Same goes to watching movies online etc ...
Since technology has greatly improved, should the definition of the precepts change according to times.....?
Thanks for your view... I have not taken precepts yet.... When I thought of Buddha's theories of the 5 senses, ear(hearing) which craves for pleasant sound, desires grow in the mind... how true..
Downloading music is considered stealing. I am not sure if watching movies online are, but I believe based on law it is.
My advice is that in this modern age, it is hard to avoid using internet to download stuff (I do it myself) - but try to buy from paid sources, like ITunes, and other paid sites... so you aren't stealing but are paying the artiste and record labels their due.
Plucking from nature park would depend on whether the trees belong to the government. I think it is considered a form of stealing. Imagine, would you steal from your neighbour? Like, would you pluck your neighbour's flowers, if you are living in landed and your neighbour has a garden? I don't think so... in the same way, the trees and flowers belong to the government for the public... so it is not right that we simply pluck them away.
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hmm... ok.
Because in Buddha's era, technology is not so advanced. Perhaps stealing in this term really covers many areas.
Not easy...
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Originally posted by 2009novice:
hmm... ok.
Because in Buddha's era, technology is not so advanced. Perhaps stealing in this term really covers many areas.
Not easy...
I think the basic precept still applies.
The precept I undertake the training rule to abstain from taking what is not given
...still applies today, because it is not right to take what belongs to others. We will incur karmic debts by doing so.
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I do think precepts should change through time, at least the exact definitions of contexts that apply.
Generally speaking, downloading stuffs and plucking flowers are very ambiguous actions. There is a huge debate regarding the copyright issues of digital media. Flowers--you didn't say which park.
If you do not harm yourself or others in the process, then it wouldn't be considered breaking precepts. Remember that precepts is meant to keep your mind in a harmonious state conducive for Buddhist practices.
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Originally posted by CrazyWorld:
I do think precepts should change through time, at least the exact definitions of contexts that apply.
Generally speaking, downloading stuffs and plucking flowers are very ambiguous actions. There is a huge debate regarding the copyright issues of digital media. Flowers--you didn't say which park.
If you do not harm yourself or others in the process, then it wouldn't be considered breaking precepts. Remember that precepts is meant to keep your mind in a harmonious state conducive for Buddhist practices.
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Stealing a packet of drink from a convenience store probably isn't going to bring much harm to anyone - yet it is a crime, an unvirtuous act, and a bad karma nonetheless.
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I would argue against your claim that stealing a packet of drink does no harm. Harm need not always be physical. It can be psychological--bringing disturbances to the mind.
Also, a crime is a breach of law, which sometimes is necessary when conducting virtuous acts.
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Originally posted by CrazyWorld:
I would argue against your claim that stealing a packet of drink does no harm. Harm need not always be physical. It can be psychological--bringing disturbances to the mind.
Also, a crime is a breach of law, which sometimes is necessary when conducting virtuous acts.
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In that case, stealing music and materials for free and other things is also harmful.
It will also incur karmic debt.
Crimes are 99% of the time unvirtuous acts. There might be exceptions, but seldom.
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Issues about online downloads are more complicated than right or wrong. See http://www.ted.com/talks/larry_lessig_says_the_law_is_strangling_creativity.html
Whether it considers "stealing," of course, much depends on the reason that you take something and break the law (illegal).
I think we should not cite "karma" too readily. It makes Buddhism scary. Who is to judge that you have too much bad karma, but your current state of mind and happiness?
Laws do become outdated through time. When it does, and become irrelevant to what we do, breaking the law becomes a way of life. In many countries, this happen or there is no way to go about your livelihood. Of course, we are fortunate not to see this too much in Singapore. :) Perhaps our good karma.
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I am now attending a talk by a young Venerable. Few days ago, someone asked the same question. The Venerable replied that the definition of stealing today is not just physically stealing, due to the advanced technology, taking advantage (if need to pay but we did not) is aslo considered stealing.
However, he said at times we do not know who own it or who to pay to when doing online downloading. If that is the case, we can donate money to the temple or something positive instead. Good idea right? I found this young Venerable very knowledgeable, I have learnt a lot from him. Most importantly, he is at the same frequency as we people today and his replies are always very practical.
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Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
I am now attending a talk by a young Venerable. Few days ago, someone asked the same question. The Venerable replied that the definition of stealing today is not just physically stealing, due to the advanced technology, taking advantage (if need to pay but we did not) is aslo considered stealing.
However, he said at times we do not know who own it or who to pay to when doing online downloading. If that is the case, we can donate money to the temple or something positive instead. Good idea right? I found this young Venerable very knowledgeable, I have learnt a lot from him. Most importantly, he is at the same frequency as we people today and his replies are always very practical.
Actually, we do know who to pay to. How can we say we do not know who to pay to?
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Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:However, he said at times we do not know who own it or who to pay to when doing online downloading. If that is the case, we can donate money to the temple or something positive instead. Good idea right?
邪�
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Good point Dawn, materials on the Internet are built by a large number of people and it is hard to trace its sources. Sometimes, giving back to other people (or even temples) maintain the spirit of giving and taking.
Insg, that is not the way to discuss things on a forum. If you have a point, say it.
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Originally posted by CrazyWorld:
Good point Dawn, materials on the Internet are built by a large number of people and it is hard to trace its sources. Sometimes, giving back to other people (or even temples) maintain the spirit of giving and taking.
Insg, that is not the way to discuss things on a forum. If you have a point, say it.
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It would be delusional to think that it is difficult to trace sources.
In fact it is simple!
And the thing is you don't even need to trace sources.
The source is the record labels, which pay the artiste.
If you get your downloads from a legal site that pays the record labels that pays the artiste, then it is not stealing.
Otherwise, you are taking free lunch without paying the originator.
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Originally posted by CrazyWorld:
Whether it considers "stealing," of course, much depends on the reason that you take something and break the law (illegal).
Actually no, as long as you take without permission, it is stealing.
It doesn't matter why you want to steal that packet of drink from the convenience store - once you take it out without paying, it is outright stealing.
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I am not going to debate about downloads anymore since we have different understanding of how the Internet works.
However, I am surprise that you judge an effect (steal that packet of drink) without consideration to its causes (motivation).
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Originally posted by Insg:
邪�
�人�智。
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Originally posted by CrazyWorld:
I am not going to debate about downloads anymore since we have different understanding of how the Internet works.
However, I am surprise that you judge an effect (steal that packet of drink) without consideration to its causes (motivation).
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I think i going to AEN side (not because he is a mod) because stealing is stealing. I double checked and I think stealing without looking at motivation is still stealing. The action is there.But I think as times changes, should definition change? Stealing here sounds as in physical context. As downloading music might not involve physically, is still a form of stealing. Stealing intellectual property.
Stealing need not to cause physical harm to someone. But the act might shows that you have the intention (greed?) to take? Greed for excitement? Greed for?
Hope everyone can take it easy... chill ar... dont argue... the more i read the more i think the smell of tnt here very strong LOL
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Sorry should be ���智。You mean you really make an effort to trace the source and really pay the person in charge? Though I hardly download and this question does not affect me but I know very few people do it. In what way is the suggestion
邪� ?
Just like when you need some information from a book, you just borrow from friends and photocopy instead of buying the book. This is also stealing because there is copyright. I believe everybody does that before isn't it ?
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Originally posted by CrazyWorld:
Good point Dawn, materials on the Internet are built by a large number of people and it is hard to trace its sources. Sometimes, giving back to other people (or even temples) maintain the spirit of giving and taking.
Insg, that is not the way to discuss things on a forum. If you have a point, say it.
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I'm on your side because as what you said internet are built by a large number of people and it is difficult to trace at times.
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there will be appropriate outcomes that will be fitting for all actions and the intentions behind them.
the precepts help guide us through the path by minimizing the negative causes and effects while every action is both a cause and an effect.
with lesser negative actions, chances of us getting caught in the 3 poisons of greed, aversion and ignorance is lower.
from the perspective of vipassana, the 5 hindrances of sensory desires, ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt, will be more easily identified and managed.
the condition for stealing is permission, both explicit and implied. with awareness, we can know whether the condition is present. when rationalizing is present, then chances are the condition is absent or unclear.
as for material found on the net, it is a big test of our practice, and honestly one that i always fail. with so many online sharing sites, books, music and movies are readily available at zero dollars. but this doesn't mean that we don't pay. one way or another, payment shall be made. so when i download something apparently for free, i know i will need to pay in kind sometime in the future.
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Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
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Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:
Sorry should be ���智。You mean you really make an effort to trace the source and really pay the person in charge? Though I hardly download and this question does not affect me but I know very few people do it. In what way is the suggestion
邪� ?
Just like when you need some information from a book, you just borrow from friends and photocopy instead of buying the book. This is also stealing because there is copyright. I believe everybody does that before isn't it ?
Knowledge is not copyrighted, but the compilation & publishing of the book IS.
Eg. When your teacher teach you 1 + 1 = 2 from a book, he/she is transfering the knowledge to you. This is OK. If you are going to photocopy the book without the consent of the author of that book, you are committing a stealing action.
When you commit an act, a seed is planted or I should say karma, be it good or bad. Nevermind about your intention. Heard of this phrase 好心��事？
And when everyone is doing something BAD doesn't mean you should follow suit.
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2009novice, glad that you have found an answer!
tnt? Nah, I think such debates are healthy. Our living conditions are changing quickly. For Buddhists, matching old texts to new circumstances can be challenging.
Good questions.
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Originally posted by geis:
there will be appropriate outcomes that will be fitting for all actions and the intentions behind them.
the precepts help guide us through the path by minimizing the negative causes and effects while every action is both a cause and an effect.
with lesser negative actions, chances of us getting caught in the 3 poisons of greed, aversion and ignorance is lower.
from the perspective of vipassana, the 5 hindrances of sensory desires, ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, doubt, will be more easily identified and managed.
the condition for stealing is permission, both explicit and implied. with awareness, we can know whether the condition is present. when rationalizing is present, then chances are the condition is absent or unclear.
as for material found on the net, it is a big test of our practice, and honestly one that i always fail. with so many online sharing sites, books, music and movies are readily available at zero dollars. but this doesn't mean that we don't pay. one way or another, payment shall be made. so when i download something apparently for free, i know i will need to pay in kind sometime in the future.
Agreed.