Originally posted by Smarty Boy:The reading is not about Paul and the corinthian church. It is about Paul's spirit as apostle of Christ. I think you are looking at it differently.
It does not go in circles and certianly not out of context. Only few verses are quoted and not the entire letter.
haha, i guess i always believe it's good to read the verses in context. since taking anything out of context can be misleading also.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:haha, i guess i always believe it's good to read the verses in context. since taking anything out of context can be misleading also.
The verses are read in context and nothing misleading what ........
Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:this is a hard saying; who can accept?
what's your point ? getting lost......pls explain.
Sorry I didn't have the opportunity to reply the morning after, been busy squeezing the last out of my summer holidays!
even if i don't see the bread and wine as Jesus' real physical body and blood, and it's symbolic to me, doesn't mean i treat it flippantly. i definitely see it as spiritual food, and Jesus wants me to take it and remember His death, and ressurection and that He's coming again.
Glad to know that =) just that.. some of my Protestant friends give me the impression that it's not really that important to them? =/ they are quite curious about why we have it at every Mass (they have it just on the 1st Sunday of each month).. It's the point of the Mass! and it's the heart of the Catholic Church so our attitudes feel so difficult to reconcile =(
amen simply means, "so be it" in hebrew. to affirm blessings or curses.
and has nothing to do with reverence etc.
The attitude with which I speak the utterance is reverent..
You have to remember, the use of many words tend to change over time (just flip through any etymology dictionary), and the Wikipedia article is separated into different usages of Amen. Its use in Christianity differs from its use in Judaism.
The use of the initial amen, single or double in form, to introduce solemn statements of Jesus in the Gospels had no parallel in Jewish practice.
and its use in different branches of Christianity has variations too. Catholics at Mass use it as a reverent affirmation of our beliefs and commitment. Other denominations may use it as a way of agreeing heartily with their preachers or spiritual leaders.
http://www.challies.com/archives/articles/clichd-christia-1.php
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01407b.htm
One word, many different shades of meaning.
christianity started out from the jewish disciples. i think using amen as an agreeing term "so be it", should be the most accurate.
of course communion is important. at least to me. actually, every part is impt la - bible reading, church going, cell attending, praying, communion. it's hard to say which is more impt compared to the others. i believe they're all pillars of a christian life.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:The verses are read in context and nothing misleading what ........
when u say tt something is read in context, means u read the entire chapter, and the entire book, and you see what paul is trying to say.
as i mention - paul was defending his rights as an apostle, one of which was to earn a living through preaching and church building, but he chose to relinguish that right so that he will gain a reward.
in that light, paul wasn't talking about how great his life is, now that he has found his calling.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:when u say tt something is read in context, means u read the entire chapter, and the entire book, and you see what paul is trying to say.
as i mention - paul was defending his rights as an apostle, one of which was to earn a living through preaching and church building, but he chose to relinguish that right so that he will gain a reward.
in that light, paul wasn't talking about how great his life is, now that he has found his calling.
Actually, everything is read in the right context. Just that you miss the point that is being carried across.....Despite the problems he faces, he is still preaching and never want to give up.....because he knew his purpose of doing so....
We are really not talking about how great his life is but how he press on despite problems and that's because he found the purpose in his life - to preach the gospel and serve the people.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:Actually, everything is read in the right context. Just that you miss the point that is being carried across.....Despite the problems he faces, he is still preaching and never want to give up.....because he knew his purpose of doing so....
We are really not talking about how great his life is but how he press on despite problems and that's because he found the purpose in his life - to preach the gospel and serve the people.
ah~!! i get it
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:ah~!! i get it
GREAT! And the whole reading will be more meaningful when you put it together with the first reading as well as the gospel reading......and really get the message....God Bless.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:christianity started out from the jewish disciples. i think using amen as an agreeing term "so be it", should be the most accurate.
of course communion is important. at least to me. actually, every part is impt la - bible reading, church going, cell attending, praying, communion. it's hard to say which is more impt compared to the others. i believe they're all pillars of a christian life.
You are right that every aspect is important (including doing God's will) .....but what pennycake is trying to tell you is that the holy communion is the highlight of the Mass (not that the others are not important or less important)....which is why our Mass is also called Eucharistic Celebration and you know now that it is not symbolic but real presence of Christ.
You will notice that the Mass from begining till end is about God and Christ.....and wonder why some protestants are spreading lies that Catholics are not worshipping God and that they are worshipping Mary........??
Bleh.. you know why non-Catholics think we worship Mary =.="
This was my Facebook status on 6 Feb:
Most Most Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I adore Thee profoundly.
I offer Thee the most Precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ,
Really and truly present in every tabernacle of the world in
reparation for the countless outrages, sacrileges and indifferences by
which He is offended.
And through the infinite merits of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and of
the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg Thee to convert poor sinners. Amen.
Originally posted by Smarty Boy:You are right that every aspect is important (including doing God's will) .....but what pennycake is trying to tell you is that the holy communion is the highlight of the Mass (not that the others are not important or less important)....which is why our Mass is also called Eucharistic Celebration and you know now that it is not symbolic but real presence of Christ.
You will notice that the Mass from begining till end is about God and Christ.....and wonder why some protestants are spreading lies that Catholics are not worshipping God and that they are worshipping Mary........??
i've talked about this many times already. if it's just something i've heard from others it's one thing, but it's different when i see it for myself, and hear ppl talk about it etc.
it's another endless discussion, really.
to me, if you stand in front of a statue, bowing your head (and i'm not talking about checking out your shoes), it's prayer. call me ignorant, but tts how it is for me.
yes, i know you all say that it's the same as how i would ask my cell leader to pray for me etc. but erm yeah, i actually hv a physical conversation with him, and i'm not on my knees when i ask him to pray for me.
and some say that Jesus will hear mother mary's prayers more, and be more inclined to listen to her, because she's his mother etc. this one i think my aunt said that.
and some will tell the congregation to go st joseph because he, as Jesus' father, pao ka liao.
and some will tell the congregation that mother mary is the best matchmaker
and of course, to sum it up, some rosary group member was unhappy that the group changed the statue and in fact, kicked a big fuss until they had to have an official meeting about it. ugly business. (yes, yes, some ppl feel more attached like photograph etc as quoted by smarty or some others - but as the list goes on, the excuses cooked up just gets weaker and lamer la)
so like chin eng says.. let's just agree to disagree. on my part, my prayers will only be directed to God alone, and i will only ask a living person to pray with me or for me. i won't ever ask a dead person to pray for me on my behalf to God.
Originally posted by Pennycake:Bleh.. you know why non-Catholics think we worship Mary =.="
This was my Facebook status on 6 Feb:
Jean - Catholics DO NOT worship Mother Mary!!! we honour her! she is our Mother too =) http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm. 18:29Gavin at 18:43 on 06 FebruaryWell saidJean at 18:52 on 06 Februaryyea, I don't understand why this myth sticks so firmly in pple's heads! alamak.. *bangs head agst wall*Josephine at 19:50 on 06 FebruaryLOL! Whose head are you banging agst wall? Yours or others?Jean at 20:08 on 06 Februarymine, in frustration.. haha cannot anyhow bang someone else's head.. may accidentally lodge the myth in further =pElaine at 20:53 on 06 FebruaryErmmm... Being in IJ for 4 years, I thought Catholics worship Mother Mary.Josephine at 20:57 on 06 FebruaryOh no! Jean is going to bang her head again.Jean at 21:02 on 06 FebruaryELAINE!!!
*collapses*Josephine at 21:03 on 06 February"Statistics of small numbers" (or "Over-Generatlization") - Reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence, such as drawing conclusions from inadequate sample sizes; a few individuals or a small group cannot represent the whole population.Jean at 21:06 on 06 Februaryhaha, good point.. but I sure am glad I put this in my status =.=" tian ah.. IJ for 4 years.. what is this..Jacelyn at 21:10 on 06 FebruaryElaine, tsk tsk... lol even i know! okay im in for a decade.Elaine at 21:40 on 06 FebruaryLOL can't blame me! "Let us 'pray' to Mother Mary..." To me 'pray' = 'worship'.
Tsk tsk.Jean at 21:51 on 06 February"when Catholics pray to saints they are simply asking for the saint to pray to God for them, not to have the saint do something for them."Josephine at 09:38 on 07 FebruaryPerhaps to Protestants, "pray"="worship". To Catholics however, "pray" is a form of communication with someone we love and are pure spirit (e.g. saints, angels and of course God). Whether that's worship, surely it depends on the content of the message and the attitude/heart (which is not so visible)?Jean at 14:47 on 07 Februaryyea.. not just to Protestants.. haha. Elaine isn't Christian =p
honouring is giving her the due respect she deserves because she had the guts to do God's will even though it would have given her great dishonour (to be pregnant before being married is a big scandal). but i think there's a line drawn la, we can't hv this discussion if neither of us can be open minded enough to see it logically.
this is the facts i see: you set up altars for statues of mother mary
you decorate her altar with flowers and bottles of holy water
she's dead (and will be called up at the end of days to be judged by Jesus, like every one of us)
at the end of it, she's human, Jesus is God. i really cannot reconcile the fact that some of you can tell me, asking her to pray for me is more effective because she is his mother, and Jesus will listen to her.
A religion's followers are often not an accurate reflection of the religion itself, and unfortunately, we're not an exception to that.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:honouring is giving her the due respect she deserves because she had the guts to do God's will even though it would have given her great dishonour (to be pregnant before being married is a big scandal). but i think there's a line drawn la, we can't hv this discussion if neither of us can be open minded enough to see it logically.
this is the facts i see: you set up altars for statues of mother mary
you decorate her altar with flowers and bottles of holy water
she's dead (and will be called up at the end of days to be judged by Jesus, like every one of us)
at the end of it, she's human, Jesus is God. i really cannot reconcile the fact that some of you can tell me, asking her to pray for me is more effective because she is his mother, and Jesus will listen to her.
The Catholic dogma holds that Mary was assumed, body and soul, into Heaven. You probably know our position already but it's worth restating.
The official position is that icons are devotional and meditational aids, and while there's nothing wrong with ornamentation, it's easy to lose sight of God and get carried away. Such distraction is in no way approved by the church itself. The wording of the Ave Maria, besides repeating what Elizabeth said to her, reiterates her role as an intercessor.
Originally posted by Kuali Baba:A religion's followers are often not an accurate reflection of the religion itself, and unfortunately, we're not an exception to that.
true as that may be, but it certainly isn't an excuse.
we're all salt and light in the world, ppl see the fruits of our belief and use that to see if what we believe is good or bad.
tts how it works.
now, i'm not discrediting catholics who are real in their faith - like mother theresa, father richards and alot of nuns and monks who devoted their lives to God. commendable really.
i'm just saying, that u can't use that as an excuse. protestant or catholic.
from what i've heard, alot of things i agree with father richard - everytime u see a christian with a sour face, it's always a catholic. or, the time he talked about bringing in a coffin, and placing a mirror in it, and watch their own reflection in it, to emphasis the fact that the church is dead.
so what if you have fiery preachers, until you stop giving excuses and start doing things, then people's perspective will automatically change.
u know what really gets to me now - christians (protestant or catholic) with lousy anger management problem. full of pride.
they can see the verse Ephesians 6:1-4
1Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2"Honor your father and mother"—which is the first commandment with a promise— 3"that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth."[a] 4Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.
but they only read the top part, and conveniently leaving out the bottom part which they have to apply themselves.
disgusting. and the person i'm refering to is a catholic.
Originally posted by Kuali Baba:The Catholic dogma holds that Mary was assumed, body and soul, into Heaven. You probably know our position already but it's worth restating.
The official position is that icons are devotional and meditational aids, and while there's nothing wrong with ornamentation, it's easy to lose sight of God and get carried away. Such distraction is in no way approved by the church itself. The wording of the Ave Maria, besides repeating what Elizabeth said to her, reiterates her role as an intercessor.
no i don't. but even if it is, so what? the bible didn't say it. the only 3 ppl recorded in the bible to have their bodies personally handled by God are moses, elijah and Jesus.
why do you think during the transfiguration, only moses and elijah appeared?
if you believe sincerely that the bible is the word of God, wholly inspired by God, and if that was either true or important, wouldn't God have had that included in the bible?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:i've talked about this many times already. if it's just something i've heard from others it's one thing, but it's different when i see it for myself, and hear ppl talk about it etc.
Actually, what do you see during Mass? Praying to Mary as God?
You are right that it is not what people says but what you see that matters. But the falsehood that people said (and still saying) is creating a false impression in people’s mind….and cause them to see what is not the real situation.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
it's another endless discussion, really.
to me, if you stand in front of a statue, bowing your head (and i'm not talking about checking out your shoes), it's prayer. call me ignorant, but tts how it is for me.
yes, i know you all say that it's the same as how i would ask my cell leader to pray for me etc. but erm yeah, i actually hv a physical conversation with him, and i'm not on my knees when i ask him to pray for me.
and some say that Jesus will hear mother mary's prayers more, and be more inclined to listen to her, because she's his mother etc. this one i think my aunt said that.
and some will tell the congregation to go st joseph because he, as Jesus' father, pao ka liao.
and some will tell the congregation that mother mary is the best matchmaker
It is not endless….because the truth is there for all to see. Like I said, falsehood that is repeated again and again is causing wrong impressions.
Mother Mary is indeed a powerful intercessor and so are the other Saints. Some people are told that Jesus listen to Mother Mary more…..and maybe that’s the fault of Novena….or misunderstanding of what the priest there meant.
But really, what they are saying is that the prayers of Saints are more powerful than us poor sinners. That is why we asked them to help pray with us and for us and it works. We see this happening with the many thanks giving testimonies and petitions received at Novenas. If you read the latest Catholic News, you will realise that 40% of people who attend Novena are non-Christians – many later signed up for RCIA and become Catholic as a result of Mother Mary’s prayers for them. Yes, Mother Mary always point people to her Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.
Don’t get the wrong impression that we “out-source” our prayers to Mother Mary or the Saints….actually, we ask them to pray with us and for us…..and, we, as a Church, as a community worship one God. This is reflected in the creed that we recite every week at Mass.
Actually, the early protestant churches (including martin luther) has no problem with devotion to Mother Mary.
I never heard that St Joseph is pao ka liao…..?? Pao what?
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:and of course, to sum it up, some rosary group member was unhappy that the group changed the statue and in fact, kicked a big fuss until they had to have an official meeting about it. ugly business. (yes, yes, some ppl feel more attached like photograph etc as quoted by smarty or some others - but as the list goes on, the excuses cooked up just gets weaker and lamer la)
I don’t know about this issue although you mentioned it before…did it happen at Holy Cross? What statue is changed? You mean Mother Mary’s Icon?
By the way, it will be good to know what the rosary is about……you will be surprised that it is all about Christ and not Mary if you know it.
It is not excuses…..it’s a tradition that has been passed down. It is not compulsory for Catholics to do Novenas or pray the rosary but why so many of them do? It is because it works and have been workings for centuries….
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:so like chin eng says.. let's just agree to disagree. on my part, my prayers will only be directed to God alone, and i will only ask a living person to pray with me or for me. i won't ever ask a dead person to pray for me on my behalf to God.
No…Mother Mary is not a “dead person” but are in heaven with Christ…enjoying eternal life…..
And yes, like you, all our prayers are directed to God alone.....with Mother Mary, all the Saints, our family and friends praying with us and for us.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:honouring is giving her the due respect she deserves because she had the guts to do God's will even though it would have given her great dishonour (to be pregnant before being married is a big scandal). but i think there's a line drawn la, we can't hv this discussion if neither of us can be open minded enough to see it logically.
this is the facts i see: you set up altars for statues of mother mary
you decorate her altar with flowers and bottles of holy water
she's dead (and will be called up at the end of days to be judged by Jesus, like every one of us)
at the end of it, she's human, Jesus is God. i really cannot reconcile the fact that some of you can tell me, asking her to pray for me is more effective because she is his mother, and Jesus will listen to her.
Actually, you are right that we must honour Mother Mary for what she has done. The whole salvation plan started with Mother Mary and it is her obedience and faith in God that makes the birth of Christ possible…And God must have very good reasons to choose her as the mother of His only son.
She is human, she is mother of God and also our mother too...as Jesus said. At the wedding of Cana, she showed us her concern for what the wedding couple lack and interceded with Jesus to help.
Centuries of Novenas devotions are testimony that she still does and it works. For us, we treat her like our mother also and we know that she will help us when we ask….but she can only help us pray and intercede with Jesus. Only God can grant us what we pray for.
As I said earlier, Mother Mary is not a “dead person” but are in heaven with Christ…enjoying eternal life…..and helping and praying for us....
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:true as that may be, but it certainly isn't an excuse.
we're all salt and light in the world, ppl see the fruits of our belief and use that to see if what we believe is good or bad.
tts how it works.
now, i'm not discrediting catholics who are real in their faith - like mother theresa, father richards and alot of nuns and monks who devoted their lives to God. commendable really.
i'm just saying, that u can't use that as an excuse. protestant or catholic.
from what i've heard, alot of things i agree with father richard - everytime u see a christian with a sour face, it's always a catholic. or, the time he talked about bringing in a coffin, and placing a mirror in it, and watch their own reflection in it, to emphasis the fact that the church is dead.
so what if you have fiery preachers, until you stop giving excuses and start doing things, then people's perspective will automatically change.
u know what really gets to me now - christians (protestant or catholic) with lousy anger management problem. full of pride.
they can see the verse Ephesians 6:1-4
Ephesians 6
Children and Parents
1Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2"Honor your father and mother"—which is the first commandment with a promise— 3"that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth."[a] 4Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.
but they only read the top part, and conveniently leaving out the bottom part which they have to apply themselves.
disgusting. and the person i'm refering to is a catholic.
Actually, there is no excuse for doing what we do. It is all about God and act of faith in Him….
Mother Mary, Saints, Rosary, Statues and Icons are all leading us to God….lack of understanding of what they are is the problem.
Thinking that having statues = idolatory is one such example.
One did not become perfect because he is a Catholic and the same goes for any faith. Disgusting and horrible people are found everywhere and in every faith.....it is not the fault of their faith and it certainly does not means that there is a problem with that faith.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:no i don't. but even if it is, so what? the bible didn't say it. the only 3 ppl recorded in the bible to have their bodies personally handled by God are moses, elijah and Jesus.
why do you think during the transfiguration, only moses and elijah appeared?
if you believe sincerely that the bible is the word of God, wholly inspired by God, and if that was either true or important, wouldn't God have had that included in the bible?
Mother Mary was still on earth when transfiguration happened isn’t it?
God did include in the Bible. Quoting from Catholic.com:
“The possibility of a bodily assumption before the Second Coming is suggested by Matthew 27:52–53: "The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many."
Did all these Old Testament saints die and have to be buried all over again? There is no record of that, but it is recorded by early Church writers that they were assumed into heaven, or at least into that temporary state of rest and happiness often called "paradise," where the righteous people from the Old Testament era waited until Christ’s resurrection (cf. Luke 16:22, 23:43; Heb. 11:1–40; 1 Pet. 4:6), after which they were brought into the eternal bliss of heaven.”
Finally, though we believed that the Bible is the Word of God, we need to be careful as "First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (2 Peter 1:20-21).
The assumption of Mary is considered false by protestant churches because it is not explicitly in Scripture but there is no problem so long as it is not in contradiction to Scripture.
The Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly—guided, as he promised, by the Holy Spirit until the end of the world (John 14:26, 16:13). The mere fact that the Church teaches that something is definitely true is a guarantee that it is true (cf. Matt. 28:18-20, Luke 10:16, 1 Tim. 3:15).