sorry if this is a repeated topic, just wanted to know how catholics see savation.
do you believe that if a person did not receive Christ and dies, he will still get to heaven, just a longer path?
How does one define "receive Christ"?
Originally posted by Ariedartin:How does one define "receive Christ"?
zzz, no need to get technical, this isn't a debate. i just.. need to know the catholic take on this.
In my opinion nobody well at least the majority of the living will not go to heaven immediately after he or she dies no matter what religion he or she was. Each one of us a believer in Christ or not would go to the world of the dead or as Jesus called it the kingdom of death where believers in Christ would await for them to be risen and share in eternal life in the last day. This view or belief is actually biblical as Jesus mentioned in each book of the new testament 3 times that he would raise whoever believed in Him on the last day.
Catholic acknowledge that even Christ descended to this world of the dead for three days before being risen by God.
My personal take on those who didn't receive Christ is that they would still be judged in the last day according to whatever they believed so that as Jesus said that those who believed in the Torah would die by the Torah and those who didn't would die not by the torah.
If you happen to take notice all religions encourage goodness. So goodness is universal no matter what religion you are in. Even atheists would still know what is good and what is evil.
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:In my opinion nobody well at least the majority of the living will not go to heaven immediately after he or she dies no matter what religion he or she was. Each one of us a believer in Christ or not would go to the world of the dead or as Jesus called it the kingdom of death where believers in Christ would await for them to be risen and share in eternal life in the last day. This view or belief is actually biblical as Jesus mentioned in each book of the new testament 3 times that he would raise whoever believed in Him on the last day.
Catholic acknowledge that even Christ descended to this world of the dead for three days before being risen by God.
My personal take on those who didn't receive Christ is that they would still be judged in the last day according to whatever they believed so that as Jesus said that those who believed in the Torah would die by the Torah and those who didn't would die not by the torah.
If you happen to take notice all religions encourage goodness. So goodness is universal no matter what religion you are in. Even atheists would still know what is good and what is bad.
jesus said that?
as Jesus said that those who believed in the Torah would die by the Torah and those who didn't would die not by the torah.
so can i safely conclude that catholics believe that you don't need to put your faith in Christ for salvation, and it can be attained elsewhere?
"Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved." (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1260)
From what I understand, the “ignorant” above is what is called invincible ignorance.
The example would be someone who has a very low IQ, but he like to find out about the Truth, but even he read, hear it all, his understanding cannot be increased, and no matter how many time people try to explain, also cannot, but he is trying very hard to do God's will according to his limited understanding, then he is invincible ignorance. This is not the same with someone who refuse to understand due to his stubbornness.
Another example is someone who is average or above average intelligent, however he live in the remote location, unable to find out about the Truth, no internet, no book, no telephone or other communication to outside world, but he doing hard as per his understanding to do God's will.
sigh the reason i asked is because.. a friend of mine was consoling me, by telling me that she believe that even if someone nv receive christ, can still goto heaven, just a longer route.
we were talking about my grandmother, who is not senile etc.
then i sighed and said that we still must place our beliefs on what the bible says. then she got angry with me =(
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:jesus said that?
so can i safely conclude that catholics believe that you don't need to put your faith in Christ for salvation, and it can be attained elsewhere?
I think it was Jesus...but it was in the new testament somewhere....
Catholics? it was just me unless I represent all the Catholics....didn't you see the bolden word personal?
Anyway there is a change of view on the issue of salvation from the head of Catholic church. Somebody who is more knowledgebale could verify or explain this?
Do you think Abraham was not saved or Elijah? or Moses? or Joseph? Surely they are all saved. Jesus hasn't even been born in their life time.
In faith I still believe firmly that putting faith in Jesus is really the best way to getting salvation or living a life of righteousness in the eyes of God or the best way(easiest) in approaching God.
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:Anyway there is a change of view on the issue of salvation from the head of Catholic church. Somebody who is more knowledgebale could verify or explain this?
I am responding to this, not because I think I am more knowledgeable, but just like to share something i found regarding your statement, the document date is 29 June 2007
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:Do you think Abraham was not saved or Elijah? or Moses? or Joseph? Surely they are all saved. Jesus hasn't even been born in their life time.
I think I read somewhere that they all actually was in waiting until Jesus resurrection and Jesus took them with Him. Do not have reference, could be true or not true, but it make sense to me.
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:I think it was Jesus...but it was in the new testament somewhere....
Catholics? it was just me unless I represent all the Catholics....didn't you see the bolden word personal?
Anyway there is a change of view on the issue of salvation from the head of Catholic church. Somebody who is more knowledgebale could verify or explain this?
Do you think Abraham was not saved or Elijah? or Moses? or Joseph? Surely they are all saved. Jesus hasn't even been born in their life time.
In faith I still believe firmly that putting faith in Jesus is really the best way to getting salvation or living a life of righteousness in the eyes of God or the best way(easiest) in approaching God.
i didn't ask for your opinion. i just want to know what is the catholic view on this.
don't need to complicate the question, just this: do catholics believe that salvation can be attained even if a person (sane and whole) didn't receive Christ into his life as personal lord and savior. (i take it that you've been a catholic for a good number of years, i'm sure you are more than capable to answer this simple question, or until now you're still not sure what you believe in?)
Yes or no answer only wat. I'm not even looking for a debate, I'm looking for an absolute answer. Yes or No? Don't beat around the bush or be wishy washy about it.
@dumbdumbI
'm a Catholic....as far as I can remember from my sec and high school days the answer is yes. Second Vatican council tells that. Don't have me look for the exact phrase. The link that Malcom gave it's not the text of the 2nd Vatican council. As long as I can remember 2nd Vatican council reconciled the catholic church with other world's religions as one of the result is the acknowlegement that salvation doesn't come solely from the Catholic church.
And Malcom has already answered you too. See his post above.
Don't worry God is a fair God and most important of all a holy God. Holy surprasses good by light years away.
Originally posted by malcom:I think I read somewhere that they all actually was in waiting until Jesus resurrection and Jesus took them with Him. Do not have reference, could be true or not true, but it make sense to me.
You have a great logical sense. Really. It's biblical. See what Jesus said of the dead Lazarus and the dead Jairus' daughter. He said they were sleeping. There is a thread on this on eternal hope. Really you have a remarkable sense [this is genuine praise to you]. I was misled to believe that my spirit would depart my body the moment I died and after briefly spending time on earth as a wondering spirit, would be judged and would either go to heaven or hell immediately after. Now I see life differently as I now know what death means.
God bless
Just to satisfy you, the Church in short says that it is entirely possible for those who have never known or had the opportunity to make a decision on Christ to enter heaven. Same goes for the Jews who are said to maintain their covenant with God.
Also, don't 'zzz' us. It's not our fault you throw out an entirely too ambiguous question, and we need to inquire more about what you're getting at. Don't automatically assume that we should know what you want to mean. You're pointing at a tree and asking, 'Is that leaf dry?' Simple question, isn't it? But it's not specific. If you want it general, then just answer my question by saying it's general. Don't start accusing us of being too technical or trying to make things complicated. Isn't it also entirely possible that you're making things too simplified?
Originally posted by Ariedartin:Don't 'zzz' me. It's not my fault if you throw out an entirely too ambiguous question, and I need to inquire more about what you're getting at. You're pointing at a tree and asking, 'Is that leaf dry?' Simple question, isn't it? But it's not specific. Don't automatically assume that I should know what you want to mean. If you want it general, then just answer me by saying it's general. Don't accuse us of being too technical or beating around the bush. Faith to us is a more sophisticated matter than you think.
But just to satisfy you, the Church in short says that it is entirely possible for those who have never known or had the opportunity to make a decision on Christ to enter heaven. Same goes for the Jews who are said to maintain their covenant with God.
how is it ambigious?
do you believe that if a person did not receive Christ and dies, he will still get to heaven, just a longer path?
it's a yes or no question. nobody ask you to complicate it.
so yeah, zzz.
ok, so catholics believe it's entirely possible la.
hmm so i guess it was a misunderstanding between me and her. thanks anyway. =)
Asking if a leaf is dry is a yes-and-no question, isn't it?
The possibility does not exist for every single person in the world. It's only possible for the Jews or those without knowledge of Christ, and even so, it's not guaranteed. God will still judge.
'A longer path'? By our teachings, those who have been saved but are not free from their earthly sins will themselves have a long path to enter heaven, as they would have to spend time in Purgatory as temporary punishment for their misdeeds on earth. I will not say that the unbelievers would definitely have an even longer path, as supposing they did lead a more virtuous life than a saved Christian, then they would have to spend less time in Purgatory. However, as Christians are all bound by God's word to spread the message of Christ, it must be seen that it is inevitable that there would come a point in time when everyone would eventually have heard of Christ. At this stage, everyone, excepting the Jews, would have knowledge of Christ, and the only way for them to enter heaven would be to accept him as their Lord and saviour. Does that answer the question for you?
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:Second Vatican council tells that. Don't have me look for the exact phrase. The link that Malcom gave it's not the text of the 2nd Vatican council. As long as I can remember 2nd Vatican council reconciled the catholic church with other world's religions as one of the result is the acknowlegement that salvation doesn't come solely from the Catholic church.
In Vatican II document, Lumen Gentium 16 also say something essentially the same with CCC 1260 above.
"Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience."
It is also talking about invincible ignorant, however today I think almost everyone in this world have heard of Christ in one way or another, so in my opinion invincible ignorant people are quite rare spicies nowadays.
This document seems has been misinterpreted by people and give the wrong impression that the doctrine has changed, however Vatican has clarified with the second link that I gave you "RESPONSES TO SOME QUESTIONS REGARDING CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE DOCTRINE ON THE CHURCH" from Congregation For The Doctrine Of The Faith on 29 June 2007. It is good to read so we can understand better, this is the first question:
FIRST QUESTION
Did the Second Vatican Council change the Catholic doctrine on the Church?
RESPONSE
The Second Vatican Council neither changed nor intended to change this doctrine, rather it developed, deepened and more fully explained it.
Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
You have a great logical sense.
This is not true, I am not any greater than you are. I have tried to remember where I got it from, it is actually from 2 sources, but it is not from bible. First is from the vision of Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich, and the second is from the Byzantine icons, this is one of them:
http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/d/duccio/buoninse/maesta/verso_3/verso24.html
The episode that Christ decent to hell is actually mentioned in Apostle's Creed
"He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again."
to dumbdumb: Was the person a good person or a bad person? Bad people go to hell, good people go to heaven. That's the primary school answer to your question.
While the Church declares Saints, it has never declared Anti-saints. We are not even certain whether Judas or Hitler are in Hell. But naturally, the normative means of being saved, is it to have total faith i catholicism. A Protestant who rejects the Catholic Faith may not have the fullness of salvation. More so if he is willing heretic.
Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 - 1922): "Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved." (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum
But doesn't some of the past counciliar and papal statements seemingly contradict V2 statement? Can anyone enlighten me?
Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 - 1445): "[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."
Yes, everyone have a chance to go to Heaven and God is the only one to judge who goes where. Read up on the last judgement and you will know that. In case you are taught that sheeps are all Christians, please note that sheeps are all true disciples of Christ who listen and act on His words. Just like in the last judgement, people are judge on if they have shown compassion, charity and love to their neigbhour.
Not all Christians will go to Heaven simply because they profess their faith. NO! Jesus said not all who call him Lord...Lord will enter into Kingdom of Heaven but only those who listen to His words and act on it.
Forget all the protestants teachings about salvation and start to trust and believed in God and his love. Pray and seek God's grace and mercy for your grandmother.
Today got time and found you this : go read Roman 2: 11-15