Pope Says, Luther Is Not Bad Afterall...
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Soon, a re-unification of a catholic church??? heheeh
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23330585-2703,00.html
THE Pope is to rehabilitate Martin Luther, arguing that he did not intend to split Christianity but only to purge the church of corrupt practices.
Benedict will issue his findings on Luther (1483-1546) in September after discussing him at his annual seminar of 40 fellow theologians at the papal summer residence in Castelgandolfo. According to Vatican insiders, the Pope will argue that Luther, who was excommunicated and condemned for heresy, was not a heretic.
Cardinal Walter Kasper, the head of the pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said the move would help to promote dialogue between Catholics and Protestants...................(cont)
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It was indeed true that Luther did not intend for the Church to be split. Being a religious Catholic, it was also never his wish to alter the Church teachings. He honoured Mother Mary and saints like any good Catholic will do. Even at his death bed, he gave thanks to Mother Mary for the many blessings that he had received.
But why were the teaching in his new founded Church so different from the Original Church?
The reason is very simple. Once you're broken from the Original Church, your root is broken and foundation is lost. That explains why many protestant churches further broke into other branches and some have even formed cult groups namely Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses. They no longer agree on the teachings. Any difference in opinion will bring to the birth of a new church.
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Take a look at this http://www.sgforums.com/forums/1683/topics/154829
It says about Martin Luther's devotion to Mother Mary and how the Marian teachings evolved and eventually removed in the Protestant Church over the centuries.
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Good intentions, bad methods.
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What took my Catholic church so long to admit that it was corrupt and Luther was a reformist. They should be ashamed for casting false accusation either deliberatley or not.
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Who are 'they' and what false accusations are you talking about?
The real reformists were priests like St. Francis de Sales and St. Ignatius of Loyola, just to name a few, and not those who sunder the Body of Christ.
"O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you." - 1 Timothy 6:20
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A comment on this issue by Mark Brumley, CEO of Ignatius Press. Not the very last 2 sentences about the mainstream media's often inaccurate reporting of things Catholic.
That's why when it comes to Church news, I don't use the secular media.
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Whatever Luther's original intent, he wound up a "heretic". His positions have often been misunderstood by Catholics. A better understanding of Luther can help reduce or eliminate unnecessary problems in the Catholc-Protestant dialogue. Indeed, because some Catholics have gone so far off the deep end, Luther can actually help them move closer to Catholicism, if they bother to understand the real Luther.
However, no amount of better understanding will make Luther a Catholic.
The Reformation was not, as Jaroslav Pelikan once said (in his Protestant days) a tragic necessity. It was tragic in that it was not necessary. Which is not to say that genuine reform was not necessary; it was. But Protestantism involved more than simple reform; it involved a radical and novel understanding of key aspects of Christianity. Those aspects, as Bouyer points out, framed positively--the gratuitousness of salvation and the supreme authority of the Word of God--were integral to Catholicism. However, Protestantism went well beyond the mere affirmation of those points to maintain the doctrine of forensic justification, a defective understanding of sola fide, and a problematic view of sola scriptura--to mention only a few major problems.
To be sure, Catholics contributed their own share to the problem by living sinful lives, by poor understanding of their own tradition, and by any number of other objectively sinful actions in the dispute with Protestants. None of that, however, can alter the problematic understanding of Christianity espoused by the Protestant Reformers, nor should anyone naively expect that dialogue will magically make everyone able to agree about everything.
The 16th century was a long time ago. In some ways, Catholics and Protestants are closer than ever. In some instances, we are further apart than were our ancestors. (Imagine what Luther or Calvin would say about Bishop Spong or many oldline Protestants who purport to operate out of a theological tradition reflective of Luther or Calvin's views.)
It's great that B-16 is taking up Luther in the Schuelerkreis meeting. I am sure the result will be a good discussion, one that provides a fuller, more accurate picture of Luther than one finds in certain Catholic apologetical and polemical literature. We need to help Catholics avoid the mistake of caricaturing Luther (and the other Protestant Reformers) on the one hand, and canonizing him (and the Protestant leaders) on the other. There is more to be said for Luther than many Catholic apologists and polemicists are willing to admit. There is much less to be said for him than many liberal Catholics and ecumenists insist on saying. Reality is somewhere in the middle. Not exactly a fact that lends itself to fruitful discussion on many blogs. I hope Ignatius Insight will be different.
Not that bloggers are the only problem. Many in the MSM are simply misreporting this story. (Shock.) Can we all agree not to take what is "reported" there at face value and wait to get the facts?
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Originally posted by ObiterDicta:
Who are 'they' and what false accusations are you talking about?
The real reformists were priests like St. Francis de Sales and St. Ignatius of Loyola, just to name a few, and not those who sunder the Body of Christ.
So you think Luther was indeed a heretic?
Because last time I met a Protestant their God was still Jesus
So I believe it was a false accusation made to him because he stood up against the Church authority which was undeniably corrupt at the time.
The same kind of false accusation made to Jesus by the Jewish religious authority then by calling Jesus a false Messiah.
Well that false Messiah has healed so many people, appeared in many visions with glorified God-like body and lay the way to God the father until this very day.
Don't make simple things complicated lah.....
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Originally posted by mhcampboy:
Soon, a re-unification of a catholic church??? heheeh
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23330585-2703,00.html
THE Pope is to rehabilitate Martin Luther, arguing that he did not intend to split Christianity but only to purge the church of corrupt practices.
Benedict will issue his findings on Luther (1483-1546) in September after discussing him at his annual seminar of 40 fellow theologians at the papal summer residence in Castelgandolfo. According to Vatican insiders, the Pope will argue that Luther, who was excommunicated and condemned for heresy, was not a heretic.
Cardinal Walter Kasper, the head of the pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said the move would help to promote dialogue between Catholics and Protestants...................(cont)
ok, this raises 2 questions from me.
the first question would be, since martin luther is already dead and with God now, why is there a need to rehabilitate him? its just a corpse now, the spirit is with God. unless you're saying that salvation comes only and only from the catholic church?
and the second question would be, i will take it that the pope admitted that there was indeed corruption in the catholic church at some point of time. but since martin was the only one who discovered it and stood against it, that means apart from the followers of martin luther, there would logically be no change in its practices of these corruption because they all still followed the direction of the pope who obviously wouldn't change his stand, which would mean that these corrupted were passed down until now. so it still wouldn't mean anything, since nothing was changed.
and i read in a catholic article that they defended themselves that the catholics were right and protestants were wrong by quoting the verse "that the gates of hell will never prevail against it"
so now apparently the gates of hell did, and maybe God made a way out by seperating the church and saved the "bloodline" of the church?
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
ok, this raises 2 questions from me.
the first question would be, since martin luther is already dead and with God now, why is there a need to rehabilitate him? its just a corpse now, the spirit is with God. unless you're saying that salvation comes only and only from the catholic church?
and the second question would be, i will take it that the pope admitted that there was indeed corruption in the catholic church at some point of time. but since martin was the only one who discovered it and stood against it, that means apart from the followers of martin luther, there would logically be no change in its practices of these corruption because they all still followed the direction of the pope who obviously wouldn't change his stand, which would mean that these corrupted were passed down until now. so it still wouldn't mean anything, since nothing was changed.
and i read in a catholic article that they defended themselves that the catholics were right and protestants were wrong by quoting the verse "that the gates of hell will never prevail against it"
so now apparently the gates of hell did, and maybe God made a way out by seperating the church and saved the "bloodline" of the church?
Matthew 23:
1 Then addressing the crowds and his disciples Jesus said,
2 'The scribes and the Pharisees occupy the chair of Moses.
3 You must therefore do and observe what they tell you; but do not be guided by what they do, since they do not practise what they preach.
If your logic is true, wouldn't it easier for Jesus to tell the crowds to overthrown the
Pharisees or set up another "Chair of Moses"?
The Catholic Church indeed made mistake in the past, even people in high places,
but Jesus said:
Matthew 16:
18 So I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my community. And the gates of the underworld can never overpower it.
What is the most valuable assets of Catholic Church that Jesus said that He will protect against the devil? Its the deposit of Truth
In my personal opinion Martin Luther should not:
1. Separate from the Catholic Church. Why? He was a Catholic prist and made a vow of Poverty, Chastity and Obedience.
2. Teach his people other teaching than Catholic Church teachings and fall into heretic. Why? Because it is the Truth. -
Crap deleted
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
ok, this raises 2 questions from me.
the first question would be, since martin luther is already dead and with God now, why is there a need to rehabilitate him? its just a corpse now, the spirit is with God.
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Dumbdumb it's called politicking Luther is revered by the Protestants and now the Catholic church want them to cooperate or something like that. Not because Luther need it to go to heaven. In order to get something from other party you need to be in a good relationship with them so the real intention of the Catholic church I guess is to mend the relationship with the Protestant churches. You cannot influence the people you hate or the people who hate you. -
Originally posted by rey619:
Jesus can walk on water but Rey Mysterio can walk on Jesus.
Even so Jesus would still love Rey Mysterio. After all he did die for people like him.
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Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
So you think Luther was indeed a heretic?
Because last time I met a Protestant their God was still Jesus
So I believe it was a false accusation made to him because he stood up against the Church authority which was undeniably corrupt at the time.
The same kind of false accusation made to Jesus by the Jewish religious authority then by calling Jesus a false Messiah.
Well that false Messiah has healed so many people, appeared in many visions with glorified God-like body and lay the way to God the father until this very day.
Don't make simple things complicated lah.....
No, I don't think he was a heretic. My position is the same as Mark Brumley's and note that he used the word 'heretic' in quotes, which means that he didn't think so either. But the fact is, as Brumley has rightly pointed out, he wasn't Catholic, and therefore by implication, he can't be called a reformer of the Church.
It's not complicated at all, actually.
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Deleted my own crap. :D
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Originally posted by malcom:
Matthew 23:
1 Then addressing the crowds and his disciples Jesus said,
2 'The scribes and the Pharisees occupy the chair of Moses.
3 You must therefore do and observe what they tell you; but do not be guided by what they do, since they do not practise what they preach.
If your logic is true, wouldn't it easier for Jesus to tell the crowds to overthrown the
Pharisees or set up another "Chair of Moses"?
The Catholic Church indeed made mistake in the past, even people in high places,
but Jesus said:
Matthew 16:
18 So I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my community. And the gates of the underworld can never overpower it.
What is the most valuable assets of Catholic Church that Jesus said that He will protect against the devil? Its the deposit of Truth
In my personal opinion Martin Luther should not:
1. Separate from the Catholic Church. Why? He was a Catholic prist and made a vow of Poverty, Chastity and Obedience.
2. Teach his people other teaching than Catholic Church teachings and fall into heretic. Why? Because it is the Truth.well, Jesus in a sense did create another seat of moses isn't it. after his death, his 12 apostles went out to preach the good news, and in a sense it clashes with the teachings of the law isn't it? but yet, it is right.
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Originally posted by Miracles&Prophecies:
Dumbdumb it's called politicking Luther is revered by the Protestants and now the Catholic church want them to cooperate or something like that. Not because Luther need it to go to heaven. In order to get something from other party you need to be in a good relationship with them so the real intention of the Catholic church I guess is to mend the relationship with the Protestant churches. You cannot influence the people you hate or the people who hate you.i'm not sure i hate catholics la. i am just uncomfortable with the statues. since i was a kid. and some parts of the teaching i find questionable. maybe it's just me.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
well, Jesus in a sense did create another seat of moses isn't it. after his death, his 12 apostles went out to preach the good news, and in a sense it clashes with the teachings of the law isn't it? but yet, it is right.
Jesus did not ask us to set up another "chair of Moses" because He Himself will be establishing the "chair of Peter" as He stated in
Matthew 16:
18 So I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my community. And the gates of the underworld can never overpower it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven: whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.'
Jesus said this long before His crucifiction not after. The crucifiction only start on Matthew 26.
And he singled out Peter again after resurection in
John 21:
15 When they had eaten, Jesus said to Simon Peter, 'Simon son of John, do you love me more than these others do?' He answered, 'Yes, Lord, you know I love you.' Jesus said to him, 'Feed my lambs.'
16 A second time he said to him, 'Simon son of John, do you love me?' He replied, 'Yes, Lord, you know I love you.' Jesus said to him, 'Look after my sheep.'
17 Then he said to him a third time, 'Simon son of John, do you love me?' Peter was hurt that he asked him a third time, 'Do you love me?' and said, 'Lord, you know everything; you know I love you.' Jesus said to him, 'Feed my sheep.
St. Peter is not the most faithful or most loved, he was like us, fall many times and yet Jesus choose him to lead us to Him.
I belive what Jesus mean by giving St. Peter the keys of the kingdom of Heaven is that to go to kingdom of Heaven, we must follow the salvation plan layed down by Jesus in Catholic Church through its sacraments.As for the statues thing, I ll try to explain even though you may not understand.
The way the catholics treats statues is the same way we treat other religious objects like paintings, we use it as a tool for contemplation. We don't worship the statues or the paintings.
That day during the launching of Da Vinci Code movie, painting of Jesus was pasted on the floor, we feel sad because they made people steps on the image of our Lord, we certainly do not think that people steps on our Lord, so it is different thing.
Whenever I go to the church of St Joseph, when I see the big statue of our Lord being crucified, I feel the pain and make me want to cry and sometime don't dare to look at it, especially when in the state of mortal sin. Do we worship the statues? Not even close. -
Originally posted by malcom:
Jesus did not ask us to set up another "chair of Moses" because He Himself will be establishing the "chair of Peter" as He stated in
Matthew 16:
18 So I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my community. And the gates of the underworld can never overpower it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven: whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.'
Jesus said this long before His crucifiction not after. The crucifiction only start on Matthew 26.
And he singled out Peter again after resurection in
John 21:
15 When they had eaten, Jesus said to Simon Peter, 'Simon son of John, do you love me more than these others do?' He answered, 'Yes, Lord, you know I love you.' Jesus said to him, 'Feed my lambs.'
16 A second time he said to him, 'Simon son of John, do you love me?' He replied, 'Yes, Lord, you know I love you.' Jesus said to him, 'Look after my sheep.'
17 Then he said to him a third time, 'Simon son of John, do you love me?' Peter was hurt that he asked him a third time, 'Do you love me?' and said, 'Lord, you know everything; you know I love you.' Jesus said to him, 'Feed my sheep.
St. Peter is not the most faithful or most loved, he was like us, fall many times and yet Jesus choose him to lead us to Him.
I belive what Jesus mean by giving St. Peter the keys of the kingdom of Heaven is that to go to kingdom of Heaven, we must follow the salvation plan layed down by Jesus in Catholic Church through its sacraments.As for the statues thing, I ll try to explain even though you may not understand.
The way the catholics treats statues is the same way we treat other religious objects like paintings, we use it as a tool for contemplation. We don't worship the statues or the paintings.
That day during the launching of Da Vinci Code movie, painting of Jesus was pasted on the floor, we feel sad because they made people steps on the image of our Lord, we certainly do not think that people steps on our Lord, so it is different thing.
Whenever I go to the church of St Joseph, when I see the big statue of our Lord being crucified, I feel the pain and make me want to cry and sometime don't dare to look at it, especially when in the state of mortal sin. Do we worship the statues? Not even close.i've heard all that before. i think i also posted what i've experienced and seen for myself which seems to contradict what you all believe in here before, so i won't mention it again. haha..
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Originally posted by ObiterDicta:
......... he wasn't Catholic, and therefore by implication, he can't be called a reformer of the Church.
It's not complicated at all, actually.
Not Catholic so why did the Curch went all the way to excommunicate him and branding him a heretic?
He was Catholic in fact a Catholic monk. He's a reformer of the church(congregation of believers in Christ). He stood up to the then corrupted Catholic church.
Here Wikipedia
Martin Luther (November 10, 1483–February 18, 1546) was a German university professor whose confrontation with Charles V at the Diet of Worms over freedom of conscience in 1521 shook the Holy Roman Empire. He was a monk, theologian, and church reformer as well.[1]
You're right it's not complicated because it's obvious.
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shrugs. me, i rather let the dead bury the dead. and try to be the christian the bible ask me to be.
and i still dislike catholics, because i'd still be unsaved because of them.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
shrugs. me, i rather let the dead bury the dead. and try to be the christian the bible ask me to be.
The news seems to be a rumor and was denied by the Vatican, here is the link:
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0801347.htm
However frankly I am not sure where will it be heading.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:and i still dislike catholics, because i'd still be unsaved because of them.
Believe me, I understand how you feel. Whatever happened and whatever will be happening to Catholic Church, may God give unsuspecting and innocent flock a way to reach Him.
Catholic Church has been attacked over and over again by the devil because it holds the Truth, so he can decieve men and lay claim to our soul. -
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
shrugs. me, i rather let the dead bury the dead. and try to be the christian the bible ask me to be.
and i still dislike catholics, because i'd still be unsaved because of them.
I had been visited(apparition) by a saint wearing a catholic monk robe long time ago. I could still remember his cold touch.
My mother had had a Marian apparition too.
I'm staying Catholic.
Last time somebody sent me an evil spirit, It fled at the cry for help to God. That and bunch more keeps me going to church.