Traditional Mass
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Actually what's the difference since both will ultimately land on your tongue?Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Communion on the tongue has always been the tradition of the Church. But Communion on the hand is legal.
Of course, I'm still going with tongue. -
1) Even the priest thinks he is unworthy to hold the Body and Blood of Christ. Do we the laity judge ourselves more worthy that he is?Originally posted by Icemoon:Actually what's the difference since both will ultimately land on your tongue?
2) What if someone takes it in my hands and keeps it in his pocket for Satanic rituals? -
Did Mr Pope's arguments come from the same papal document?Originally posted by catinthehat:I wish you'd read Pope John Paul II's motu proprio "Ecclesia Dei Adflicta" more clearly. Ya know, this is exactly what the Holy See says: -
1. oic .. so the problem is with the hands (i.e. not worthy to hold), not the tongue.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:1) Even the priest thinks he is unworthy to hold the Body and Blood of Christ. Do we the laity judge ourselves more worthy that he is?
2) What if someone takes it in my hands and keeps it in his pocket for Satanic rituals?
2. haha .. problem of robbery. -
The Ecclesia Dei commission that John Paul II instituted has said the same. The commission declared that Catholics can fulfill their Sunday obligation by attending Masses offered by SSPX priests. If the priests of the SSPX were in schism, the Ecclesia Dei commission would presumably not allow Catholics to frequent their Masses, since they would be allowing Catholics to worship outside the Church. This indicates that SSPX priests are not in fact in schism (for example, Catholics could not fulfill their Sunday obligation by attending liturgies offered by the schismatic priests of the Eastern Orthodox churches). The same commission has said that, so long as Catholics attend SSPX chapels out of their devotion to the Traditional Latin Mass (and not because they want to separate themselves from the Roman Pontiff), such conduct is not sinful.
It looks like you are referring to this letter
http://www.unavoce.org/articles/2003/perl-011803.htm
What about this statement in the letter:We have already told you that we cannot recommend your attendance at such a Mass
Is it not unambigous that Ecclesia Dei Commission (EDC) does not support Catholics attending the SSPX Masses?
You see, what this letter purports to do is to address technical questions - for example, it specifically mentions "in the strict sense" regarding fulfilling sunday obligation. But, brought into the larger context of the disobedience of the SSPX (which Pope John Paul II has himself declared), and also in the letter it mentions,1.) The priests of the Society of St. Pius X are validly ordained, but they are suspended from exercising their priestly functions
Also in an earlier letter, EDC says
[ur]http://www.unavoce.org/Protocol539-99.htm[/url]
Clearly, the EDC does not encourage Catholics to attend SSPX Masses at all, never mind that it is not sinful.
The difficulty is that the longer they frequent these chapels, the more likely it is that they will slowly imbibe the schismatic mentality which stands in judgement of the Church and refuses submission to the Roman Pontiff and communion with the members of the Church subject to him. If that becomes the case, then it would seem that they adhere to the schism and are consequently excommunicated. For these reasons this Pontifical Commission cannot encourage you to frequent the chapel of the Society of St. Pius X.
It is a dangerous thing to pick one part of the matter (attending SSPX masses are not sinful) and ignore the rest (The church does not encourage you to attend SSPX Masses because of the schismatic mentality of the SSPX). This is a manifestation of Cafeteria Catholicism. -
Mr Pope tio pwned ..
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I think what Mr Pope can do is to bring his friend out of SSPX 'cos his friend is supporting their cause.
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There is no problem if that is the only church in the area that offers Tridentine Mass. If a person merely attends Mass at an SSPX chapel out of love for the Traditional Latin Mass, including the piety it fosters and the theological clarity it provides, then such a person would not be in schism.Originally posted by catinthehat:Clearly, the EDC does not encourage Catholics to attend SSPX Masses at all, never mind that it is not sinful.
It is a dangerous thing to pick one part of the matter (attending SSPX masses are not sinful) and ignore the rest (The church does not encourage you to attend SSPX Masses because of the schismatic mentality of the SSPX). This is a manifestation of Cafeteria Catholicism.
Again, I am only speaking to the lay CatholicsÂ’ attendance at SSPX chapels and the canonical status of the rest of the SSPX priests. If SSPX priests join the society out of their devotion to the Traditional Latin Mass and do not intend to sever their union with the Holy Father, it is difficult to conclude that such men are schismatics. Most men become SSPX priests because of their devotion to tradition and the fact that their diocesan bishops would never let them celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass (which they have every right to do according to St. Pius VÂ’s Quo Primum), or put unjust restrictions upon it (which is against the directives of John Paul II). How can such priests be in schism?
The EO church is no longer considered schismatics even though they reject papal authority but the SSPX priest who consider the Pope as the Vicar of Christ, follow the church infallible teachings and more importantly wishes to stick to Tradition are schismatics. Ur logic is flawed.
The Holy See regard its founder as Schismatics but not its priest if they do not sever ties with the Holy See. Lay ppl who attend thier masses are not in SIN if their parish do not have it.
I REPEAT I DO NOT SYMPATHISE WITH THEM AT ALL. BUT IM ARGUING ITS PERFECTLY LAWFUL TO ATTEND THIER MASSES IF U WANT TO GO FOR A TRIDENTINE MASS. -
1) Only consecretated hands can touch the Eucharist.Originally posted by Icemoon:1. oic .. so the problem is with the hands (i.e. not worthy to hold), not the tongue.
2. haha .. problem of robbery.
2) In USA they are used in teh Black Mass -
To heed Pope John Paul II's advice of maintaining unity, such priests have an option (many options, in fact) within the visible Church. There is no need to go to the SSPX. You can join the Fraternity of St Peter.
If SSPX priests join the society out of their devotion to the Traditional Latin Mass and do not intend to sever their union with the Holy Father, it is difficult to conclude that such men are schismatics. Most men become SSPX priests because of their devotion to tradition and the fact that their diocesan bishops would never let them celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass (which they have every right to do according to St. Pius VÂ’s Quo Primum), or put unjust restrictions upon it (which is against the directives of John Paul II). How can such priests be in schism?
Even if "SSPX priests join the society out of their devotion to the Traditional Latin Mass ", it does not change the fact that once they are ordained by an SSPX bishop, according to the law of the church, they are suspended from exercising their faculties to celebrate the sacraments. -
Sure or not? According to that letter,Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Most men become SSPX priests because of their devotion to tradition and the fact that their diocesan bishops would never let them celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass (which they have every right to do according to St. Pius VÂ’s Quo Primum), or put unjust restrictions upon it (which is against the directives of John Paul II). How can such priests be in schism?"You also state in your letter that the Holy Father has given you a 'right' to the Mass according to the 1962 Roman Missal. This is not correct. It is true that he has asked his brother Bishops to be generous in providing for the celebration of this Mass, but he has not stated that it is a 'right'. Presently it constitutes an exception to the Church's law and may be granted when the local Bishop judges it to be a valid pastoral service and when he has the priests who are available to celebrate it. Every Catholic has a right to the sacraments (cf. Code of Canon Law, canon 843), but he does not have a right to them according to the rite of his choice."
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He holds dear to the Church infallible teachings, recognises the Pope, consider the Novus Ordo mass as valid though seriously inadequate, superiority of Tridentine Mass and reject the novelties of Vatican 2 (the fallible ones).Originally posted by Icemoon:I think what Mr Pope can do is to bring his friend out of SSPX 'cos his friend is supporting their cause.
Not in schism -
Then the question remains why he has to join the SSPX ..Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:He holds dear to the Church infallible teachings, recognises the Pope, consider the Novus Ordo mass as valid though seriously inadequate, superiority of Tridentine Mass and reject the novelties of Vatican 2 (the fallible ones).
Not in schism -
SSPX makes for a very interesting case study. How come they are like ou3 duan4 si1 lian2 to Rome?
They should just re-union with Rome. Maybe can join FSSP .. haha -
We recall that Pope Saint Pius VÂ’s Quo Primum gives every Latin Rite Catholic the right to attend the Traditional Latin Mass, and every priest the right to celebrate the Traditional Mass, forever. The Traditional Latin Mass is an immemorial custom of the Church, dating back to Saints Leo and Gregory the Great, and the Holy Ghost would never allow it to be obliterated. Even Paul VI stated that the Novus Ordo did not repeal, no, could not repeal, the Traditional Latin Mass.Originally posted by Icemoon:
Pope Saint Pius V has definitively declared that Catholics should not have “any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure” for attending the Traditional Latin Mass. Again, we need more guidance from the Church on the situation of the SSPX.
Ecclesia Dei, the Pope stated that "respect must everywhere be shown for the feelings of all those who are attached to the Latin liturgical tradition" (which, in context, referred to the Tridentine form of the Roman Rite), and urged bishops to give "a wide and generous application" to the provisions of the previous document.
This mean that the Bishop should allow a priest to conduct a tridentine mass if he had asked. However since many bishops are hostile to this, many catholics are forced to turn to the SSPX to particpate in teh Tridentine Mass. -
They are in union with Rome. They never reject Papal authroity hence they cant be considered in schism.Originally posted by Icemoon:SSPX makes for a very interesting case study. How come they are like ou3 duan4 si1 lian2 to Rome?
They should just re-union with Rome. Maybe can join FSSP .. haha -
This is baffling. Why would bishops be hostile to this? They never read Quo Primum ah?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:This mean that the Bishop should allow a priest to conduct a tridentine mass if he had asked. However since many bishops are hostile to this, many catholics are forced to turn to the SSPX to particpate in teh Tridentine Mass.
Actually if people turn to SSPX just for the Mass (what else is exciting there?), the simple solution would be to allow the Tridentine in one place once or twice a week. Or once a month, like the gregory chant liddat.
Now we are having it like once or twice a year here!
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wait .. I don't think they are in union with Rome. How is union defined?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:They are in union with Rome. They never reject Papal authroity hence they cant be considered in schism.
If they are in union, how come they cannot execute their priest duties from what we have read above? -
Seriously, do you have any idea of what was happening at 1570 when Quo Primum was issued?
We recall that Pope Saint Pius VÂ’s Quo Primum gives every Latin Rite Catholic the right to attend the Traditional Latin Mass, and every priest the right to celebrate the Traditional Mass, forever.
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I think Mr Pope reads too much wikipedia and not original documents.
At least catinthehat quotes original documents. -
Icemoon, there are many reasons why Bishops are not so generous with the Traditional Mass. I can provide u with a few:
1. Many have encountered combative SSPX people who go up to them and demand and argue and so on, not being polite and respectful at all.
2. Many priests have emotional baggage against the traditional Mass. You saw for yourself how complicated it was.
3. Since it is so complicated, priests who know the new rite only, need to go and undergo training on how to do the traditional Mass. Sometimes they can't because they're so busy! So the bishop can't grant permission simply because there's no available priest. -
The case of the Hawaii six also bears this out. Those excommunications would not have been lifted if those six Catholics were attending Masses offered by schismatic priests. Moreover, if the SSPX priests are “suspended,” and thus still subject to the Church’s disciplinary laws, they cannot be schismatics who are outside the Church. You cannot be outside the Church and still subject to her canon law. This is a legal impossibility.Originally posted by Icemoon:I think Mr Pope reads too much wikipedia and not original documents.
At least catinthehat quotes original documents.
OK i agree. My knowledge on the SSPX is rather limited. I do belive however the Masses they conduct is valid as any priest can conduct a tridentine mass. I feel there isnt a problem if u go to a SSPX church just to attend tidentine mass (if u parish do not have one). It is obvious that we need further guidance from the Church on this matter.
Can someone enlighten me on the pro-multis? i heard POpe Benedict XVI is changing the Novus Ordo to meet it.... -
But the priest who joined the SSPX did so mainly because the seminaries refused to train them in the traditional rite?Originally posted by catinthehat:Icemoon, there are many reasons why Bishops are not so generous with the Traditional Mass. I can provide u with a few:
1. Many have encountered combative SSPX people who go up to them and demand and argue and so on, not being polite and respectful at all.
2. Many priests have emotional baggage against the traditional Mass. You saw for yourself how complicated it was.
3. Since it is so complicated, priests who know the new rite only, need to go and undergo training on how to do the traditional Mass. Sometimes they can't because they're so busy! So the bishop can't grant permission simply because there's no available priest. -
Moreover, if the SSPX priests are “suspended,” and thus still subject to the Church’s disciplinary laws, they cannot be schismatics who are outside the Church. You cannot be outside the Church and still subject to her canon law. This is a legal impossibility.
The problem with the SSPX priests is that they behave as though the laws do not apply to them, which, although not in schism, behave in a manner which will lead one to it. Take an analogy - you may not be a drug addict yet, but taking small amounts of drugs will slowly lead u to become one.
Give you another example. If a religious order wants to set up shop in a diocese, it has to seek the permission of the Bishop to do so. But the SSPX does not care. Just check with the local Archbishop
I do belive however the Masses they conduct is valid as any priest can conduct a tridentine mass. I feel there isnt a problem if u go to a SSPX church just to attend tidentine mass (if u parish do not have one). It is obvious that we need further guidance from the Church on this matter.
You said earlier that you dun sympathise with them. Great to hear that, and please keep on reading up more about your faith, as well as praying for your priests and asking God for His graces to help you in your faith.
We already know what to do when you want to attend a tridentine Mass. Ecclesia Dei says, don't go to the SSPX. Those who attended the recent FSSP Mass in Singapore patiently waited 16 months for it, knowing that it is more important to maintain unity with the Church. If you have the means, you can fly to Hong Kong - they have it once every 2 weeks. HK Tridentine Mass Community I saved up in order to do so earlier this year.Can someone enlighten me on the pro-multis? i heard POpe Benedict XVI is changing the Novus Ordo to meet it....
here Arinze on Pro Multis
Essentially, this means that, any new translation has to translate "pro multis" as "for many". And since a new English translation is in progress, we certainly will see "for many" in the words of the consecration, when the new English translation of the New Rite is released. -
For those who join the SSPX, well... err... I don't know. Maybe they are taken in by the SSPX propaganda.
But the priest who joined the SSPX did so mainly because the seminaries refused to train them in the traditional rite?
But I really want to emphasize. There are options within the Catholic church, like the FSSP, if you want to be trained in the traditional rite.