practical differences btw Catholics and Evangelicals
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Is this true? If this is....what are catholics and protestants quarrelling abt?
http://stephentong.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=269
the Catholic Church does NOT teach that we are saved "by accumulating 'good works.'" We are saved by the grace of God working in us and through us. The works and "merits" are not in any sense "earning" our salvation or trying to outweigh our sins; they simply show what sort of people we are, and it is the sort of person we are that will get us into or keep us out of Heaven.
In fact, the Catholic teaching on this subject is entirely in line with the teachings of the Bible and also with the practices of the Evangelicals I have known. The practical differences between Catholics and Evangelicals on this subject are virtually none. It appears from the article that the differences with Orthodox on this subject are similarly small. -
Plenty to celebrate together, but plenty to quarrel about too.
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OT here .. 'cos I dun want to start a new topic.
How come NT2 participates so much? Those not in the know will think he is Catholic siah. -
start a new topic... whoosh.
I wonder why everybody thinks we're a works-based religion. we're not!
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okay.. this is from the most "uncatholic" catholic of all here
we have our different ways of saying it
we have our different ways of saying it
you think you are right
we think we are right
you have your beliefs
we have our beliefs
you think we are wrong
we think you are wrong
but ultimately...
we serve the same God
we worship the same God
so, i figure, what you want to believe is your own right, your own FAITH in your own teachings/learnings/revelations
what we believe is our own right, our own FAITH, our own teaching/learnings/revelations
will it matter? ultimately, it is between God and each individual...
ultimately, the faith we have is personal..
see you on the other side when we all pass on
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I am with you that we all need to recognize that we belong to Christ and we are all brothers and sisters in the Lord. But please realize that Catholic spirituality is centered on Christ and Christ alone, and any honor we give to Mary or the saints is really honor that we give to God. I really appreciate how you expressed your love for Jesus and that you go to him alone. I now challenge you to study the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist. You see, when I go to Holy Mass every day, I am as close to Jesus as possible this side of heaven, because I receive His Body and Blood in the Eucharist. This is the greatest gift the Father has given to us. This is the eternal covenant between God and man, partaking of the divine nature by consuming Jesus Christ, the true bread from heaven. You can only receive this sacrament of the Lord's body and blood, in union with Peter and his successors, within the Catholic Church. You cannot receive this sacrament in Protestant churches, because they do not have valid holy orders.Originally posted by the Bear:okay.. this is from the most "uncatholic" catholic of all here
we have our different ways of saying it
we have our different ways of saying it
you think you are right
we think we are right
you have your beliefs
we have our beliefs
you think we are wrong
we think you are wrong
but ultimately...
we serve the same God
we worship the same God
so, i figure, what you want to believe is your own right, your own FAITH in your own teachings/learnings/revelations
what we believe is our own right, our own FAITH, our own teaching/learnings/revelations
will it matter? ultimately, it is between God and each individual...
ultimately, the faith we have is personal..
see you on the other side when we all pass on
If you really love Jesus, and I know you do, I believe it behooves you to investigate what the Church has taught and believed for 2,000 years (but what Martin Luther decided to reject in 1514). Yes, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, but the fullness of Christ and His truth subsists in the Catholic Church. For Christ only has one Bride, not many.
Christ instituted one truth and not many. The Catholic Church ( and every christian for the first 15 centuries) must be wrong for a Protestant to be correct. I cannot contend the fact that Christ left us without a Sheperd to guide us to the Truth. -
and who are you to force your beliefs, even if i feel they are right, on someone else?
do you want them to force their beliefs on you?
if the answer is NO, then you have no right to force yours on them...
you may be right, but being right does not give you the right... -
Actually Martin Luther did not reject the Church .. it was the Church that rejected (excommunicated) him.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:If you really love Jesus, and I know you do, I believe it behooves you to investigate what the Church has taught and believed for 2,000 years (but what Martin Luther decided to reject in 1514).
Picture yourself living in his era. Rampant selling of indulgences. Won't your faith be shaken?
The real rebel is the Anglican Church which split not because of love of God but personal desires. -
He was excommunicated for him refusing to repudiate his doctrine of Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, the other 3 solas and him tearing the 7 books from the Bible.
The Emperor cut him off with an explosive, "NO!" To which Luther sharply replied that should he recant at this point he would surely open the door to even more tyranny and impiety.
Speaking for the Church, Eck, in Latin, now spoke:
"Your plea to be heard from Scripture is the one always made by heretics...How can you assume you are the only one who can understand the sense of Scripture? Would you put your judgement above that of so many famous men and claim that you know more than all of them?...to call into question the most holy orthodox, instituted by Christ the perfect Lawgiver...and which we are forbidden by the Pope and by the Emperor to discuss, least there be no end of debate? I ask you, Martin -- answer candidly and without distinctions -- do you or do you not repudiate your books and the errors which they contain?
To which Luther replied in German:
"Since your Majesty and lordships desire a simple reply, I shall answer without distinctions....Unless I shall be convinced by the testimonies of the Scriptures or by clear reason (I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other) my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I neither can nor will make any retraction, since it is neither safe nor honourable to act against conscience. God help me. Amen." -
He is to be respected because he did it for the love of God. Moreover he also found a new way of looking at Jesus Christ and salvation.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:He was excommunicated for him refusing to repudiate his doctrine of Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, the other 3 solas and him tearing the 7 books from the Bible.
The Emperor cut him off with an explosive, "NO!" To which Luther sharply replied that should he recant at this point he would surely open the door to even more tyranny and impiety.
If you want to blame, blame it on the situation then .. poor Church and wrong usuage of money. Go and decorate Sistine Chapel for what?
Like I've said, the real rebel is the Anglican Church.
got tear up 7 books meh? I thought only James?
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Yea the 7 OT books and almost tore of James ( disagreed with Sola Fide) and Revelations ( no evangelistic content).
1) He had no authority wadsoever to reject the Pope and her Councils.
2) He recieved no authority from Christ to do so while the Pope and the Church can easily claim Apostolic Succession.
3) His doctrine of Sola Scriptura has led to 36 000 Protestant denomination. I dont think thats a Reformation.
4) In OT, God orders the Jewish ppl to decorate his Temple with gold and ornaments. Is it wrong to beautify the Church? The Church in the Council of Trent cut down on the abuses. Theologically indulgences is sound but it has been abused finanacially by individuals. Luther however attacked the very need of indulgence. -
I think it is pretty clear why indulgences were introduced.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Yea the 7 OT books and almost tore of James ( disagreed with Sola Fide) and Revelations ( no evangelistic content).
1) He had no authority wadsoever to reject the Pope and her Councils.
2) He recieved no authority from Christ to do so while the Pope and the Church can easily claim Apostolic Succession.
3) His doctrine of Sola Scriptura has led to 36 000 Protestant denomination. I dont think thats a Reformation.
4) In OT, God orders the Jewish ppl to decorate his Temple with gold and ornaments. Is it wrong to beautify the Church? The Church in the Council of Trent cut down on the abuses. Theologically indulgences is sound but it has been abused finanacially by individuals. Luther however attacked the very need of indulgence.
Let's face up to history and not glamorise something which is bad and say it is theologically sound. -
1. suan le bah. if the Pope and her Councils so authoritative, then they would have cleansed their house first.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Yea the 7 OT books and almost tore of James ( disagreed with Sola Fide) and Revelations ( no evangelistic content).
1) He had no authority wadsoever to reject the Pope and her Councils.
2) He recieved no authority from Christ to do so while the Pope and the Church can easily claim Apostolic Succession.
3) His doctrine of Sola Scriptura has led to 36 000 Protestant denomination. I dont think thats a Reformation.
4) In OT, God orders the Jewish ppl to decorate his Temple with gold and ornaments. Is it wrong to beautify the Church? The Church in the Council of Trent cut down on the abuses. Theologically indulgences is sound but it has been abused finanacially by individuals. Luther however attacked the very need of indulgence.
2. maybe he has the Holy Spirit ..
3. you might as well say the Catholic Church has led to 36 000 + 1 denominations from the original Hebrew religion.
4. It is wrong when your coffer cannot support such extravagence. Indulgence is sound then issit practised today? -
1) Thier house was long cleansed. Luther attacked doctrines that was formed and decreed infallible long ago.Originally posted by Icemoon:1. suan le bah. if the Pope and her Councils so authoritative, then they would have cleansed their house first.
2. maybe he has the Holy Spirit ..
3. you might as well say the Catholic Church has led to 36 000 + 1 denominations from the original Hebrew religion.
4. It is wrong when your coffer cannot support such extravagence. Indulgence is sound then issit practised today?
2) To go against the Church and successors of the Apostles, u must show some miracles and signs. Luther did none. Luther was extremely vulgar and married a nun.
3) Sola Scriptura destroyed Luther hopes of a united Protestant front. It led to 36 000 denominations due to a rejection of authority and private intepretations of Scripture.
4) Indulgence is still in use.
Catechism of the CC
1478 An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins. Thus the Church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.
Its theoligcally sound however individuals were abusing it to make a proft. This was stmaped out in the Council of Trent in the 1500s.