Rebuttal of prosperity preaching...
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I believe that RC does not preach Christ for prosperity so there should be less chance of this thread being locked.
Last night I happened to hear some preching from NCChurch (CD.) I think the error must be corrected. Somebody was listening to it and I walked into the room and heard it.
The verse quoted was from the Palsm
Psalm 23 WEB
1 A Psalm by David. Yahweh is my shepherd: I shall lack nothing.
2 He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters.
3 He restores my soul. He guides me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me. Your rod and your staff, they comfort me.
5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with oil. My cup runs over.
6 Surely goodness and loving kindness shall follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in Yahweh's house forever.
The preacher who claimed to have no qualms preaching prosperity said:
1. God will never send anybody through the valley of the shawdow of death, so it is the Christian who stumbled in when he sins.
2. But even is he "fails" as a Christian, God is a shepherd who will take care of him.
His teaching this is for the following:
1. That people should come to God for prosperity.
2. That Sin has no consequences once you accept Christ.
I would like to say the following:
1. People come to God to be Born Again.
Born Again people becomes God's instruments.
Even if you go through the valley of the shadow of death doing God's work, you will fear no evil for God is with you.
secondly
You have to bear the consequences of your actions, whether you consider them sins or good works. -
Why is this man promoting want for material goods?
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I do not condemn people and I do not try to guess people's motives. He wants more people to come into his church is my guess.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Why is this man promoting want for material goods? -
This is very interesting. Let me give it some thought before posting a response.
regards,
obiterdicta -
Originally posted by casino_king:
Typical sugar coated Gospel. The 'Once saved always saved' doctrine is a proponent of the second point.
2. That Sin has no consequences once you accept Christ.
Sin has no consequences? But the wages of sin is death! -
1. I have never seen Psalm 23 used in this context. Especially for verse 4, the typical Catholic understanding is that this is a statement of hope in the Lord in times of trials and difficulties. How it is related to prosperity is completely beyond me.
2. To say that one only enters the valley of the shadow of death due to sin is contrary to the Bible and to everyday experience. Take the example of Job. In Job 1:8, God describes Job as being faithful and good. Yet, shortly after that, God allows disaster to befall upon Job. Clearly, Job did not sin before the bad things happen to him.
In terms of everyday experience, many bad things can happen to us due to the natural laws of the earth, or through the neglect and malice of other people. These things are allowed by God, as part of what Catholics call his 'permissive Will'. It has nothing to do with the sinfulness of the receiver of such bad things.
Clearly, the pastor is making the same mistake that the 3 friends of Job made, and for which they were rebuked at the end of the book by God.
3. The part about God being a shepherd to us who fail is certainly true. On our own, we are destined to fail. We are saved only by God's mercy, and we need to continue to ask for His mercy each day until we go home to Him.
regards,
obiterdicta -
Speaking of locked threads, I was somewhat disappointed that the moderator of EH had decided to lock the thread where someone posted a whole list of 'challenges' questioning the existence of God.Originally posted by casino_king:I believe that RC does not preach Christ for prosperity so there should be less chance of this thread being locked.
I thought that would have been a good opportunity to offer some robust answers. After all, doubt is sometimes the 1st step to conversion. What's more, even those of us who are baptised have doubts.
I fail to see how that would be irrelevant to the objectives of EH.
regards,
obiterdicta -
Well, he got flamed i guessOriginally posted by ObiterDicta:Speaking of locked threads, I was somewhat disappointed that the moderator of EH had decided to lock the thread where someone posted a whole list of 'challenges' questioning the existence of God.
I thought that would have been a good opportunity to offer some robust answers. After all, doubt is sometimes the 1st step to conversion. What's more, even those of us who are baptised have doubts.
I fail to see how that would be irrelevant to the objectives of EH.
regards,
obiterdicta
No choice -
Who got flamed? Do you mean the poster or the mod?Originally posted by laurence82:Well, he got flamed i guess
No choice
Either way, I suspect it gives a poor impression of Christians. -
Agree with you on most points; I just hope that some people who heard his preaching understand that one should not preach Christ for prosperity and preach no consequence for one's actions.
His teaching regarding no consequences is tied to prosperity. To summarise, it is that you do not prosper because you do not believe that you deserve it (lack the faith.) You think that you do not deserve it because of sin in your life.
So his logic is that you must not "dwell" on sin and believe that God will prosper you even if you sin! He then says that he is not preaching to sinners and the people who goes to his church do not sin willingly. So what do you people have to say to such logic? -
a totally untenable position....
if sin had no consequences, the world wouldn't be in such a terible state now... -
Good point. he will then say, that since Jesus died for one's sins, the consequences of sin only apply to "non believers."Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:a totally untenable position....
if sin had no consequences, the world wouldn't be in such a terible state now... -
Ok, just for everyone's info the thread below that I think is the one being refered to is not lock, the one that got locked is another one in which an athetist went in and post a series of Challenges.
pple who go NCC can get cured of AIDs?
cheers
to CK
I believed we had already answered (at least I had tried to) your question, its quite obvious that you do not accept them, and like I had said, you are entitled to your own opinion. -
That thread you gave a link to is not locked! What are you talking about?Originally posted by vince69:Ok, just for everyone's info the thread below that I think is the one being refered to is not lock, the one that got locked is another one in which an athetist went in and post a series of Challenges.
pple who go NCC can get cured of AIDs?
cheers
to CK
I believed we had already answered (at least I had tried to) your question, its quite obvious that you do not accept them, and like I had said, you are entitled to your own opinion.
Vince69; seek God to know God and do not seek God for prosperity. The relationship with God is worth all the "suffering" and "poverty." It is the greatest honour that any man can have, to do the the will of the living God. So that even if one walks through the Valley of Death, of Suffering and of Poverty; I will fear no Evil for I am doing the will of God. -
1) think you just tested it yourself.... you can post your test result here.Originally posted by casino_king:That thread you gave a link to is not locked! What are you talking about?
Vince69; seek God to know God and do not seek God for prosperity. The relationship with God is worth all the "suffering" and "poverty." It is the greatest honour that any man can have, to do the the will of the living God. So that even if one walks through the Valley of Death, of Suffering and of Poverty; I will fear no Evil for I am doing the will of God.
2) suffering and poverty, are these necessary? but of course if you chose to, you can always do it (just don't impose on others)
3) doing the will of God, how do you know what is the will of God? is the will of God for you, the same as His will for me? I mean we are two different person, we may not have the same calling.
I had spoken my peace there in EH, I will shut up here also. you can continue to say whatever you want. -
Exactly, when you preach, tell people that that Jesus said those Born Again and do God's will will enter into the Kingdom of God.Originally posted by vince69:1) think you just tested it yourself.... you can post your test result here.
2) suffering and poverty, are these necessary? but of course if you chose to, you can always do it (just don't impose on others)
3) doing the will of God, how do you know what is the will of God? is the will of God for you, the same as His will for me? I mean we are two different person, we may not have the same calling.
Born Again; doing God's will... not believe Jesus and expect prosperity. -
err... CK, actually, you are the one preaching the message "tell people that that Jesus said those Born Again and do God's will will enter into the Kingdom of God.", not me.Originally posted by casino_king:Exactly, when you preach, tell people that that Jesus said those Born Again and do God's will will enter into the Kingdom of God.
Born Again; doing God's will... not believe Jesus and expect prosperity.
I only say, "Salvation can only be by faith in the finished work of Christ, received by grace from God." -
Read John 3. No need to argue. Directly quoted words of Jesus Himself.Originally posted by vince69:err... CK, actually, you are the one preaching the message "tell people that that Jesus said those Born Again and do God's will will enter into the Kingdom of God.", not me.
I only say, "Salvation can only be by faith in the finished work of Christ, received by grace from God." -
i rather join enyouth.
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In contrast to the prosperity gospel, Sacred Scripture places great value in suffering on the spiritual journey:
Beloved, do not be surprised that a trial by fire is occurring among you, as if something strange were happening to you. But rejoice to the extent that you share in the sufferings of Christ, so that when his glory is revealed you may also rejoice exultantly. - 1 Peter 4 12-13
Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials, for you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. And let perseverance be perfect, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. - James 1:2-4
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church. - Colossians 1:24
Not only that, but we even boast of our afflictions, knowing that affliction produces endurance, and endurance, proven character, and proven character, hope, and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy Spirit that has been given to us. - Romans 5:3-5
regards,
obiterdicta -
Agreed. Good and excellent quotes.Originally posted by ObiterDicta:In contrast to the prosperity gospel, Sacred Scripture places great value in suffering on the spiritual journey:
Beloved, do not be surprised that a trial by fire is occurring among you, as if something strange were happening to you. But rejoice to the extent that you share in the sufferings of Christ, so that when his glory is revealed you may also rejoice exultantly. - 1 Peter 4 12-13
Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials, for you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. And let perseverance be perfect, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. - James 1:2-4
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church. - Colossians 1:24
Not only that, but we even boast of our afflictions, knowing that affliction produces endurance, and endurance, proven character, and proven character, hope, and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy Spirit that has been given to us. - Romans 5:3-5
regards,
obiterdicta
Just to add... he will then tell you that at the end of all the suffering is a BMW 7 series waiting for you. Most importantly, if the BMW is not at your door the next day, well believe harder!