Father Son Holy Spirit Mary Saints Pope........ Priests ....
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Originally posted by casino_king:
John 3:5 - "No one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit"
To you "born again" is a ritual? Why didn't Jesus say "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be [b]baptised, he cannot see the kingdom of God?"
Why did Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God? http://bible.cc/john/3-3.htm
Baptism was practised during Jesus time by John the Baptist.
If as you say: "The Church is the earthly extension of the Kingdom of God."
Why then did Jesus say: "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be compared to ten maidens who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. bible.cc/matthew/25-1.htm
Why didn't Jesus say that the the kingdom of heaven shall be compared to the Roman military?
The Church is an organisation like the Roman military during Jesus' time.[/b]
Which is exactly what Baptism does. Baptism is not merely a ritual. It is a Sacrament, a channel of divine grace.
Besides, Jesus practised it, so why shouldn't we?
The kingdom of God on earth is not equals to the kingdom of Heaven. Of course Heaven has greater joy. The kingdom of God on earth transmits some of this joy downwards.
And what is wrong with organisation? -
Hahahaha....Originally posted by Chin Eng:hmm.... rating of RC forum will go up.....
Just realised RC forum had just been promoted to page 2
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3:5 We are to understand Christ as he expected his auditor to understand him. John the Baptist baptized both Jew and Gentile as a sign of purification by repentance from past sins. Nicodemus would then have certainly understood by the expression, born of water, a reference to this rite of baptism. http://biblecommenter.com/john/3-5.htm Click HEREOriginally posted by SingaporeMacross:John 3:5 - "No one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit"
Which is exactly what Baptism does. Baptism is not merely a ritual. It is a Sacrament, a channel of divine grace.
Besides, Jesus practised it, so why shouldn't we?
The kingdom of God on earth is not equals to the kingdom of Heaven. Of course Heaven has greater joy. The kingdom of God on earth transmits some of this joy downwards.
And what is wrong with organisation?
Would you agree that to be born again is "be born of the Spirit?" And according to Jesus, A Born Again person is: The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:8
Do you not think that in simply requiring baptism is a cop out? Should't the Church be guiding seekers to be born of the spirit?
You said that the Church (an organisation, nothing wrong with that) is the Kingdon of God on earth; instead of using the analogy of an organisation; Jesus said: "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be compared to ten maidens who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. bible.cc/matthew/25-1.htm
What was Jesus trying to imply when He said that the Kingdom shall be compared to maidens meeting the bridegroom? -
Originally posted by casino_king:
1)To be baptised with water is to be born again in the spirit.
[b]3:5 We are to understand Christ as he expected his auditor to understand him. John the Baptist baptized both Jew and Gentile as a sign of purification by repentance from past sins. Nicodemus would then have certainly understood by the expression, born of water, a reference to this rite of baptism. http://biblecommenter.com/john/3-5.htm Click HERE
Would you agree that to be born again is "be born of the Spirit?" And according to Jesus, A Born Again person is: The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:8
Do you not think that in simply requiring baptism is a cop out? Should't the Church be guiding seekers to be born of the spirit?
You said that the Church (an organisation, nothing wrong with that) is the Kingdon of God on earth; instead of using the analogy of an organisation; Jesus said: "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be compared to ten maidens who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. bible.cc/matthew/25-1.htm
What was Jesus trying to imply when He said that the Kingdom shall be compared to maidens meeting the bridegroom?[/b]
2) If you continue on to verse 13, it states "Watch therefore, for you don't know the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming."
These verses merely talk about how hard it is to get to heaven, that's all. -
Aren't you ignoring the obvious? If that was all there is to it, then Jesus would have said: You must be baptised to see the Kingdom of Heaven. It is not like those people at that time did not know what baptism was.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:1)To be baptised with water is to be born again in the spirit.
2) If you continue on to verse 13, it states "Watch therefore, for you don't know the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming."
These verses merely talk about how hard it is to get to heaven, that's all.
If you look at the whole context, you can see that Jesus and Nick was talking about being born in human terms and being born again. Put yourself in Nick's shoes. How would Nick have understood it?
He asked if he should go back into his mother's womb and be born again and Jesus said; Unless you be born of water (natural birth) and be born of the spirit (born again) you cannot see the Kingdom of God.
Nick and everybody knew what natural birth was (born of water) so Jesus elabprated what born of the Spirit is.
The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:8
Again you are ignoring the obvious. Jesus could very well have used a different analogy but said: "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be compared to ten maidens who ....... went to meet the bridegroom. bible.cc/matthew/25-1.htm
I know you are steeped in Church dogma and fear to be seen as dissenting but this is not Catholic and Protestent disagreement; the Protestents similarly interpret it like you. Remember Jesus' words: Jesus said "...you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
The Church's rituals and practices are for seekers who might be bewildered if they are not given guidelines and religious activities to follow. The RC and the Protestents disagree about the rituals but they are in the same boat. They are abiding in the rituals and practices.
Jesus did not come to introduce a new set of rituals and practices different from those taught in Judaism. Jesus came to tell you to be born again. To be born of the spirit.
The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:8 -
Just want to clarify some terms used. ThanksOriginally posted by SingaporeMacross:1)To be baptised with water is to be born again in the spirit.
are you refering to water baptism? in a protestant church context, one have to be already a professing believer (meaning one that had already received Christ) before the going through the water baptism, is this true also for the Roman Catholic church?
2) If you continue on to verse 13, it states "Watch therefore, for you don't know the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming."
These verses merely talk about how hard it is to get to heaven, that's all.
agree that its hard to get to heaven, actually by our own strength, its impossible, that's why we need Jesus Christ our Lord, but I thought these verses here is talking about staying alert and being wise? -
Originally posted by casino_king:
what makes you so sure that water refers to amniotic fluid?
Aren't you ignoring the obvious? If that was all there is to it, then Jesus would have said: You must be baptised to see the Kingdom of Heaven. It is not like those people at that time did not know what baptism was.
If you look at the whole context, you can see that Jesus and Nick was talking about being born in human terms and being born again. Put yourself in Nick's shoes. How would Nick have understood it?
He asked if he should go back into his mother's womb and be born again and Jesus said; Unless you be born of water (natural birth) and be born of the spirit (born again) you cannot see the Kingdom of God.
Nick and everybody knew what natural birth was (born of water) so Jesus elabprated what born of the Spirit is.
[b]The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:8
Again you are ignoring the obvious. Jesus could very well have used a different analogy but said: "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be compared to ten maidens who ....... went to meet the bridegroom. bible.cc/matthew/25-1.htm
I know you are steeped in Church dogma and fear to be seen as dissenting but this is not Catholic and Protestent disagreement; the Protestents similarly interpret it like you. Remember Jesus' words: Jesus said "...you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
The Church's rituals and practices are for seekers who might be bewildered if they are not given guidelines and religious activities to follow. The RC and the Protestents disagree about the rituals but they are in the same boat. They are abiding in the rituals and practices.
Jesus did not come to introduce a new set of rituals and practices different from those taught in Judaism. Jesus came to tell you to be born again. To be born of the spirit.
The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:8[/b] -
Those who want to be a truly professing believer go through Baptism because Baptism is a initiation into the sacramental life of the Church. Baptism is a key to the other Sacraments.Originally posted by vince69:1)are you refering to water baptism? in a protestant church context, one have to be already a professing believer (meaning one that had already received Christ) before the going through the water baptism, is this true also for the Roman Catholic church?
The formula for Baptism is as such:" I baptise you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."
For adults, obviously they will have to profess the beliefs of the Church to recieve Baptism.
For infants, it's a different story altogether. We can discuss this soon.
On a side note, terms such as 'recieving Christ', 'accepting Jesus as your personal saviour', are very alien to Catholic ears.Originally posted by vince69:
Err? It is hard to get to heaven because we need to stay alert and be wise?
2) agree that its hard to get to heaven, actually by our own strength, its impossible, that's why we need Jesus Christ our Lord, but I thought these verses here is talking about staying alert and being wise?
With God's help of course. -
If you look at the whole context, you can see that Jesus and Nick was talking about being born in human terms and being born again. Put yourself in Nick's shoes. How would Nick have understood it?Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:what makes you so sure that water refers to amniotic fluid?
He asked if he should go back into his mother's womb and be born again and Jesus said; Unless you be born of water (natural birth) and be born of the spirit (born again) you cannot see the Kingdom of God.
Nick and everybody knew what natural birth was (born of water) so Jesus elabprated what born of the Spirit is.
Furthermore, like i said, Jeus could very well have said, Baptism. Everybody at that time understood Baptism. I am so sure because it is so obvious.
What is not obvious is what a person born of the spirit is and only people born of the spirit know. -
[quote]Originally posted by vince69:
can only think of a very crude illustration,
A father was teaching his sons, both to the older brother and also the younger brother.
The younger one may not fully able to understand what the father had just taught them, he can either ask the father to explain (which the father will be most willing to) or he can also ask the older brother. Of course the father can also choose to teach the younger son via the older one as well.
Church leaders are normally chosen because of their maturaity in the things of God, hence God can use them to give guildance to the younger ones. God can teaches us directly, or He may also choose to teach us via the church leaders installed by Him.
Personal opinion, church leaders are given to guide and to teach the church regarding to the things of the Lord, as the Lord teaches and guides them.
(i know, my illustration quite weak, someone may be able to explain better)[/quoteThe analogy should be this. A maiden (seeker) wants to be married. She is confused and she ask some people who are married (Church leaders, witnesses) what being married is like. She ask people (church leaders, witnesses) what the bridegroom is like. She ask people (church leaders, witnesses) what the bridegroom likes.
You see unless she (seeker) gets married to the bridegroom; knowing all about the bridegroom from people (Church leaders, witnesses) is pointless.
Unfortunately, many of the people themselves were never married and learnt what they knew from others (including the bible.) -
Originally posted by casino_king:
The Scripture does not say "No one can enter the kingdom of God without being first born of water and then born again of spirit." It is therefore obvious that John 3:5 was referring to water baptism alone, rather than natural birth and being born again.
If you look at the whole context, you can see that Jesus and Nick was talking about being born in human terms and being born again. Put yourself in Nick's shoes. How would Nick have understood it?
He asked if he should go back into his mother's womb and be born again and Jesus said; Unless you be born of water (natural birth) and be born of the spirit (born again) you cannot see the Kingdom of God.
Nick and everybody knew what natural birth was (born of water) so Jesus elabprated what born of the Spirit is.
[b]Furthermore, like i said, Jeus could very well have said, Baptism. Everybody at that time understood Baptism. I am so sure because it is so obvious.
What is not obvious is what a person born of the spirit is and only people born of the spirit know.[/b]
Furthermore, Jesus and the disciples went to the countryside to baptise afterwards.
Jesus even subjected Himself to Baptism, even though He did not need it. And God was pleased. When He was baptized, the heavens are opened and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in the form of a dove. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
Jesus could also have well used the term 'Trinity' but he did not.
[
Furthermore, like i said, Jeus could very well have said, Baptism. Everybody at that time understood Baptism. I am so sure because it is so obvious.
What is not obvious is what a person born of the spirit is and only people born of the spirit know.[/b]
Similarly, he could have used the term 'Holy Communion' when he gave his 'Bread of Life' discourse in John 6.
Your argument is not valid lah.
siginah -
Then why didn't Jesus said so? Why did Jesus answered him, "Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God?" Why didn't Jesus say unless one is baptised?Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:The Scripture does not say "No one can enter the kingdom of God without being first born of water and then born again of spirit." It is therefore obvious that John 3:5 was referring to water baptism alone, rather than natural birth and being born again.
Furthermore, Jesus and the disciples went to the countryside to baptise afterwards.
Jesus even subjected Himself to Baptism, even though He did not need it. And God was pleased. When He was baptized, the heavens are opened and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in the form of a dove. -
If Jesus said "trinity" would anybody have understood? If Jesus said "Holy Communion" would anybody have understood?Originally posted by siginah:Jesus could also have well used the term 'Trinity' but he did not.
Similarly, he could have used the term 'Holy Communion' when he gave his 'Bread of Life' discourse in John 6.
Your argument is not valid lah.
siginah
Baptism? see: Luke 7:29; Luke 3:7; Mark 1:5; Mark 1:9; Matthew 3:7; Mark 1:4; John 1:33;