Mary Wasn't Sinless
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http://www.letusreason.org/RC1.htm
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Let's ignore the one-sided Protestant site and look at the explanation. That site is probably written by ppl who pickup quotes for their own benefits only. Besides, Protestants are not the original church. How much do they know? Very limited.
Let's find out from the correct source. -
The Marian doctrines are, for Fundamentalists, among the most bothersome of the Catholic Church’s teachings. In this tract we’ll examine briefly two Marian doctrines that Fundamentalist writers frequently object to—the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.
The Immaculate Conception
It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived "by the power of the Holy Spirit," in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.
When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angelÂ’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28 ). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.
The traditional translation, "full of grace," is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for "daughter" ). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angelÂ’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.
FundamentalistsÂ’ Objections
FundamentalistsÂ’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and MaryÂ’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her "spirit rejoices in God my Savior" (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.
Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.
Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been "saved" from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving ChristÂ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was "redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son" (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!
But what about Romans 3:23, "all have sinned"? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he canÂ’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they "had done nothing either good or bad" (Rom. 9:11).
We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if PaulÂ’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.
Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.
The objection is also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. Most of the angels never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work he has done in sanctifying his creation. Sinning does not make one human. On the contrary, it is when man is without sin that he is most fully what God intends him to be.
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was officially defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854. When Fundamentalists claim that the doctrine was "invented" at this time, they misunderstand both the history of dogmas and what prompts the Church to issue, from time to time, definitive pronouncements regarding faith or morals. They are under the impression that no doctrine is believed until the pope or an ecumenical council issues a formal statement about it.
Actually, doctrines are defined formally only when there is a controversy that needs to be cleared up or when the magisterium (the Church in its office as teacher; cf. Matt. 28:18–20; 1 Tim. 3:15, 4:11) thinks the faithful can be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to some already-existing belief. The definition of the Immaculate Conception was prompted by the latter motive; it did not come about because there were widespread doubts about the doctrine. In fact, the Vatican was deluged with requests from people desiring the doctrine to be officially proclaimed. Pope Pius IX, who was highly devoted to the Blessed Virgin, hoped the definition would inspire others in their devotion to her. -
so based on the dogma of Immaculate Conception.
can Mary save? -
no cannot.
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y?Originally posted by FrustMom:no cannot. -
There are several Marys in the Bible, but by far the most important is Mary, the Mother of Jesus. She is known by many titles, including the Blessed Virgin Mary (sometimes abbreviated BVM), Queen of Heaven, Theotokos (Mother of God) and Our Lady (Notre-Dame in French; Madonna in Italian).
Because of her humility, piety and role as the mother of the Savior of humanity, Mary has been accorded great respect in all branches of Christianity and is a favorite subject in art, music and literature. In Catholic and Orthodox Churches, Mary is the pre-eminent saint and the focus of much popular devotion.
This article explores historical and modern Christian beliefs about Mary (known as "Mariology" ), which includes such doctrines as the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the Virgin Birth of Christ, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the Assumption of Mary, Mary as "Theotokos," and Mary as Coredemptrix and Mediatrix.
Visions, shrines, feast days, the "Hail Mary" and other devotional practices related to Mary, which are important aspects of Mariology, will be treated in the forthcoming Christian Practices section -
Mary in the New Testament
The Virgin Mary plays a prominent role in the Gospels, especially in the birth stories of Mark (1-2) and Luke (1-2). According to Luke, Mary was of the tribe of Judah and the lineage of David (1:32).
When Mary was a young woman engaged to Joseph, the Angel Gabriele announced to her that she would give birth to a son that would be born of the Holy Spirit. Mary humbly accepted her divinely-appointed role, saying, "May it be unto me as you have said." She then conceived and gave birth to Jesus while remaining a virgin (Lk 1:31f; Mt 1:20, 23).
Mary appears periodically throughout Jesus' ministry, death and resurrection. She was present at Jesus' first miracle, which he performed reluctantly at her suggestion (John 2:1f).
At the crucifixion, Mary and a small group of women were present (Jn 19:25). Speaking from the cross, Jesus entrusted her care to his disciple John (Jn 19:26). One of Michaelangelo's most famous sculptures (right) depicts Mary mourning her son's death.
According to traditional interpretation, the Virgin Mary was not the "other Mary" who visited the tomb after Jesus' death (Matthew 28:1) – it is said she did not visit the tomb because she already knew he would not be there. -
Mary in Apocryphal Texts
The Gospel of James contains biographical material about Mary considered plausible by some Orthodox and Catholic Christians. It states she was the daughter of Joachim and Anna, who were quite old when she was conceived. They took her to live in the Temple in Jerusalem when she was three years old, as Hannah took Samuel to the Tabernacle in the Old Testament. The Gospel of James also teaches Mary's perpetual virginity.
Mary in Early Christian Theology
In the writings of the early church fathers, Mary is mentioned only occasionally and primarily in contrast to Eve. Justin Martyr (d. c.165) and Irenaeus (d. c.202) contrasted Mary's obedience with Eve's disobedience.
The apocryphal Gospel of James (as seen above), Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and especially Athanasius affirmed Mary's perpetual virginity. This doctrine was accepted by both Western and Eastern Churches from the fifth century onwards.
The doctrine of Mary as Theotokos (God-bearer) arose in Alexandria and was probably first used by Origen. It became common in the fourth century, was opposed by Nestorius, and accepted at the Council of Ephesus in 431. Mary played a lesser role in the West than in the East at this time. Western theologians like St. Ambrose primarily spoke of Mary as a "type" or symbol of the Church.
The doctrine of the bodily Assumption of Mary was formally developed by St. Gregory of Tours (d. 594), although it had been present in apocryphal tests since the late fourth century. The Feast of the Assumption became widespread in the sixth century, and sermons on that occasion tended to emphasize Mary's power in heaven. -
Mary in the Reformation and Protestantism
Despite the Reformer's rejection of the veneration of Mary and other saints, most Protestants have shown a great deal of honor and respect for Mary. Martin Luther said Mary is "the highest woman," that "we can never honour her enough," that "the veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart" and that we should "wish that everyone know and respect her." John Calvin said, "It cannot be denied that God in choosing and destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor." Zwingli said, "I esteem immensely the Mother of God," and, "The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow."
Most Reformers rejected the Immaculate Conception, and the Assumption of Mary, but some affirmed the perpetual virginity of Mary and all accepted the Virgin Birth.
Since the Reformation, Protestants have tended to pay little attention to Mary, primarily in reaction against the excessive level of adoration they believe is relegated to her in Catholic and Orthodox Christianity. But this may be beginning to change. In the summer of 2004, Christian History & Biography magazine (affiliated with the Protestant Christianity Today) dedicated an entire issue to Mary. Included were articles suggesting the value of making a larger place for her in Protestantism. In December 2004, the Southern Baptist dean of an evangelical school in Alabama said:
I would like Protestants today, evangelicals today, to go back to the reformers. I don't think we have to become Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox believers to recover a truly Protestant, reformational, scriptural understanding of Mary.
Professor Beverley Roberts Gaventa of Princeton Theological Seminary, whose writings have called for more Protestant emphasis of Mary agrees, pointing out:
What happens in the story is that Mary is chosen entirely by God's own initiative. This is a primary example of what Protestants emphasize as God's divine grace, God's initiative. -
Originally posted by FrustMom:
the Gospel of James is no gospel at all and holds no authoratative status
[b]Mary in Apocryphal Texts
The Gospel of James contains biographical material about Mary considered plausible by some Orthodox and Catholic Christians. It states she was the daughter of Joachim and Anna, who were quite old when she was conceived. They took her to live in the Temple in Jerusalem when she was three years old, as Hannah took Samuel to the Tabernacle in the Old Testament. The Gospel of James also teaches Mary's perpetual virginity.
Mary in Early Christian Theology
In the writings of the early church fathers, Mary is mentioned only occasionally and primarily in contrast to Eve. Justin Martyr (d. c.165) and Irenaeus (d. c.202) contrasted Mary's obedience with Eve's disobedience.
The apocryphal Gospel of James (as seen above), Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and especially Athanasius affirmed Mary's perpetual virginity. This doctrine was accepted by both Western and Eastern Churches from the fifth century onwards.
The doctrine of Mary as Theotokos (God-bearer) arose in Alexandria and was probably first used by Origen. It became common in the fourth century, was opposed by Nestorius, and accepted at the Council of Ephesus in 431. Mary played a lesser role in the West than in the East at this time. Western theologians like St. Ambrose primarily spoke of Mary as a "type" or symbol of the Church.
The doctrine of the bodily Assumption of Mary was formally developed by St. Gregory of Tours (d. 594), although it had been present in apocryphal tests since the late fourth century. The Feast of the Assumption became widespread in the sixth century, and sermons on that occasion tended to emphasize Mary's power in heaven.
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that's your belief...
what catholics believe is that we DO NOT pick and choose what we want to believe... all or nothing...
not bits and pieces...
Originally posted by NeonTetra:the Gospel of James is no gospel at all and holds no authoratative status -
but the gospel of james is not even found in the RC bibles. we dun pick and choose....the whole bible is authorative. thats the belief.Originally posted by the Bear:that's your belief...
what catholics believe is that we DO NOT pick and choose what we want to believe... all or nothing...
not bits and pieces...
we dun pick books that supports some dogma and hide commandments that fobid tt dogma -
Even 7 of your "popes" rejected her sinlessness.
She was good and faithful, but she was HUMAN. Only God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit were SINLESS. The rest, including all your "saints" are HUMAN.
Romans 3:23 For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
If Mary were sinless, would it not have been mentioned in the Gospel?
As established in the other thread, Apocryphal Texts are not part of Scripture. They hold no weight and therefore should not be quoted. -
my catholics friend told me that they regard Mary as a virgin even until today.
I asked them, how can she be a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus's brothers, as in Mary and Joseph have more children after Jesus.
they cannot give me an answer.
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the dogma of the immaculate conception and perpetual virginity of mary are teachings initiated by the roman church fathers. some of them owe their 'origins' from some marian apparitions and also various sources from the apocryphal books and also 'logical' thinkings.Originally posted by Deportivo:my catholics friend told me that they regard Mary as a virgin even until today.
I asked them, how can she be a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus's brothers, as in Mary and Joseph have more children after Jesus.
they cannot give me an answer.
when the sole authority of the bible is rejected. all the above are able to come into play. when the sole authority of the bible is accepted, all the above references are secondary and infact heretical.
heretical in this case does not mean anything as non-protestant. The RC doctrine of the holy trinity is correct and doctrinally sound. heretical refers to perversion and distortion of the truth found only in the word of God. -
Even though the bible mentioned "Your mother and your brothers are here.." , we have to understand their language and culture. We cannot interpret their words in our today's English. In those days, if the "brothers" were Jesus' natural brother, the people would have said "Your mother and her sons are here", instead of "your mother and your brother". The expression of "Your brother" could mean cousins in those days' language.Originally posted by Deportivo:my catholics friend told me that they regard Mary as a virgin even until today.
I asked them, how can she be a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus's brothers, as in Mary and Joseph have more children after Jesus.
they cannot give me an answer.
Likewise, when Jesus called His Mother "Woman!" We cannot read it in our today's context and say that He was rude to His Mother. -
One thing I can never understand :
Protestants respect and honour Martin Luther so much. They believed in everything that he did and taught. But they fail to understand (maybe they don't even know in the first place ) how much Martin Luther has honoured Mary.
Even when the evidence of such is brought up, Protestants refuse to comment on it. Neither can they bring up any historical facts on Martin Luther denying the holiness of Mother Mary. Instead, I could only see historical records of Martin Luther praying to saints... something that the Protestants condemn and yet their hero was practising it very much.
Not only that Martin Luther honoured Mary, he also prayed to St Augustine when he was near death.
Protestants these days have forgotten or not even aware of why their predecessors protested against the Catholic church. Most of them think it's the honouring of Mary, while others think it's the statues in church that the early Protestants were opposing. -
?Originally posted by Honeybunz:Even though the bible mentioned "Your mother and your brothers are here.." , we have to understand their language and culture. We cannot interpret their words in our today's English. In those days, if the "brothers" were Jesus' natural brother, the people would have said "Your mother and her sons are here", instead of "your mother and your brother". The expression of "Your brother" could mean cousins in those days' language.
Likewise, when Jesus called His Mother "Woman!" We cannot read it in our today's context and say that He was rude to His Mother.
But the bible clearly says Jesus had siblings. James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55, Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, and Mark 3:31)
Even in Galatians 1:19 mention James is Jesus's brother. -
Its not called the gospel of James in the Bible, but yes it is in there.Originally posted by NeonTetra:but the gospel of james is not even found in the RC bibles. we dun pick and choose....the whole bible is authorative. thats the belief.
we dun pick books that supports some dogma and hide commandments that fobid tt dogma -
Originally posted by Weirdo80:
Catholics never claimed that saints are sinless. The reason they are saints are the examplary Christian lives they have led and how they overcame thier personal sins.
[b]Even 7 of your "popes" rejected her sinlessness.
She was good and faithful, but she was HUMAN. Only God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit were SINLESS. The rest, including all your "saints" are HUMAN.
Romans 3:23 For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
If Mary were sinless, would it not have been mentioned in the Gospel?
Now about Mary:
1.Yes she is human and a creature of God. But certainly not ordinary.
It would be like saying the president of US is just another man.
2. She could not have orignal sin, because she was the vessel for the Word made Man.
They part of the Scriputre. They hold weight and you've not suffcienlty establised that they are moot in the other thread.
As established in the other thread, Apocryphal Texts are not part of Scripture. They hold no weight and therefore should not be quoted. -
Bible didn't say they are Mary's sons.Originally posted by Deportivo:?
But the bible clearly says Jesus had siblings. James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55, Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, and Mark 3:31)
Even in Galatians 1:19 mention James is Jesus's brother. -
Bible also didn't say that Mary is sinless.Originally posted by Honeybunz:Bible didn't say they are Mary's sons. -
But it didn't say she's sinful eitherOriginally posted by Deportivo:Bible also didn't say that Mary is sinless.
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Mary, the mother of Jesus
In Christianity and Islam, Mary (Judæo-Aramaic מרים Maryām "Bitter"; Septuagint Greek Μαριαμ, Mariam, Μαρια, Maria; Arabic: Maryem, مريم is the mother of Jesus and the betrothed of Joseph. The Christian theology concerning her is Mariology.
Historicity
Most, though not all, historians accept that Jesus of Nazareth was a historical figure, even if they accept nothing or almost nothing of the account of his life in the Christian Gospels. Mary (Miriam in Hebrew, Mariam in Greek) is mentioned by name in three of the four Gospels, and the Book of Acts, although not by name in the Gospel of John. Therefore his mother holds some interest as a historical figure, and there seems to be no reason not to accept the Christian tradition that her name was Miriam.
It is generally agreed that she was a young woman when she first became a mother. Some insight into traditions concerning her later life, e.g., that she died between three and 15 years after the crucifixion of Jesus, can be found in the Apocrypha. Assuming that Jesus died in his 30s, there is also little reason to doubt that his mother could be still alive at the time of his death, or that she could have witnessed it. Beyond the accounts given in the Gospels and a few other early Christian sources, however, there is no independent or verifiable information about any aspect of Mary's life. An account of the childhood of Mary is given in the mid-2nd century Gospel of James.The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions built around the figure of Mary, and the centuries of Marian cult derived from the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christian churches, are based on faith, traditions of the Church Fathers, and their interpretations of the Scriptures¹.