A350 to be cancelled?
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Aerospace & Defense
Airbus Considers Sacrificing A350
Chris Noon, 10.05.06, 2:35 PM ET
In a Darwinian twist to the battle between the world's two dominant makers of commercial aircraft, Airbus may have to sacrifice the weaker of two upcoming models to get its troubled superjumbo offering to market.
Thomas Enders, the co-chief executive of European Aeronautic Defense and Space (other-otc: EADSF - news - people ), Airbus' corporate parent, told The Financial Times Deutschland that the company might scrap its planned A350 XWB (extra-wide body) aircraft--the planned competitor to rival Boeing's (nyse: BA - news - people ) 787 Dreamliner--as a result of the current crisis at the aerospace and defense giant.
When asked if EADS had considered halting development of the aircraft, Enders said, "I can't rule it out." He added that "nothing can be considered automatic" in the company's difficult situation.
Enders' pessimism is unsurprising. Airbus can't make any promises on the A350 program right now, as it has to fix and deliver the jinxed A380 superjumbo first. Media reports have suggested that Middle Eastern airline Emirates, frustrated by new delays to the Airbus A380 program, is close to canceling at least half of its orders for the aircraft, which can seat 555 to 850 people, and is discussing with Boeing terms for an initial order of approximately 20 of its 747-8s, meant to carry up to 450 passengers.
Halting development of the 270- to 310-passenger A350 seems like the wisest course for Airbus, which is reeling from problems related to the A380. Among these are penalty payments for late deliveries, credit downgrades, French-German government disputes, union unrest and a continuing lack of credibility among key major airlines, who are furious at the cost, inconvenience and arrogance surrounding this Titanic debacle.
As far as the manufacturing of the A350 goes, Airbus is caught between a rock and a hard place. It can't outsource the work to a cheaper development area, such as China, because training and infrastructure costs would be too high and the time period too long. To develop the A350 internally, Airbus would need billions of euros and a steady income stream from A380 deliveries, neither of which it currently has.
Insiders say the company had been chewing over plans to make the A350 an all-carbon-fiber aircraft to match the Boeing 787, but that would involve massive investments in new technology plus a high degree of risk, neither of which Airbus is in a position to contemplate right now. Bear in mind that all Airbus' A350 "orders" are for the current, heavier metal-alloy version of the craft, so the company runs the risk of losing many of them to airlines that are not interested in being carbon-fiber guinea pigs.
The end result--even if Airbus were able to build the A350--would be an aircraft that will fly in 2013 or 2014, half a decade after Boeing's 787, with room for 210 to 330 people, takes to the skies. Around that time, both Airbus and Boeing, acutely conscious of the uncertainty over oil prices, will likely be refocusing on switching their entire narrow-body lines to carbon-fiber fuselages to save weight.
In truth, Airbus' plans to redesign its A350 model always had a whiff of the slapdash about it. In mid-July, Airbus--anxious to mollify its customers who groused that the original A350 was slow, thirsty and suffered from poor interior design--added the designation XWB to its previous A350 proposal, an abbreviation for "extra wide body." Yet the revamped A350 is a measly five inches wider than Boeing's competing 787.
It is hard to imagine that airlines and shareholders who had been massively and expensively inconvenienced by Airbus program mismanagement on the A350 or A380 over the past two years will be terribly excited about the promise of five inches of extra cabin width in an aircraft to be delivered eight years from now.
Besides the widening, the new planes, which will debut sometime between 2012 and 2014, will use the A380 superjumbo's cockpit and will feature beefier engines and increased use of composite materials in the wings and fuselage.
"It could be wise for Airbus to just quietly put the A350 on the back burner [and] see if they can squeeze a little better performance out of the 295-passenger A330, in the same way they're trying to gain a 5% fuel efficiency improvement on the narrow bodies over the next couple of years, and ride it out," said Doug McVitie, a former Airbus employee and managing director of the France-based Arran Aerospace consultancy. "Whichever way they turn, they have no magic solution, so dropping the program or at least deferring its launch seems to me to make sense."
http://www.forbes.com/2006/10/05/airbus-eads-boeing-biz-man-cx_cn_1005airbus.html?partner=yahootix -
have sg gotten the airbus 380?
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First delivery 1 year from now.Originally posted by sgboy2004:have sg gotten the airbus 380?
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I just cannot describe the frustration I have with Airbus at this moment. Now this news came out, its really a joke and big one for the aviation community.
Airbus is considered young for aircraft production, and some did not sell well also. A380 is the last blooper which will bring Airbus and its partnerships to the bottom of the sea.
A300- Some lack of safety features, un-egronomical designs of the throttle lever causing two losses of China Airlines aircraft.
A310- Much duplicate the Boeing 767, my favourite, but does not really stand out in performance.
A320- Why, the Boeing 737 is better, and even more variants to choose from!
A330/340- Well o' well, these look almost the same, but what's the point when other options like the Boeing 777-200ER/LR and 300 /ER are here, now!
By the way, if you did not check out airliners.net, the people there name the A380 as...
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Whalejet. -
Excuse me..but why are u frustrated?Are u a customer of the A380? Did u lose hundreds of millions of $$$ or are you some tour operators who has to compensate pax for tkts/novelty of flying the A380 because of it's delay?
How do you know if the aviation community is laughing at this " joke" ?
just because an aircraft manufacturer makes a mistake doesn't mean all the models are too. U start shooting down all the AIB acft and compare them against Boeing jus because of this.?.
And what do u mean by A310 or the rest of the AIB acft here do not "stand out in peformance".
Please enlighten me...or the rest of the forumers here...I'm really wiling to learn from you.Originally posted by jetabt767400:I just cannot describe the frustration I have with Airbus at this moment. Now this news came out, its really a joke and big one for the aviation community.
Airbus is considered young for aircraft production, and some did not sell well also. A380 is the last blooper which will bring Airbus and its partnerships to the bottom of the sea.
A300- Some lack of safety features, un-egronomical designs of the throttle lever causing two losses of China Airlines aircraft.
A310- Much duplicate the Boeing 767, my favourite, but does not really stand out in performance.
A320- Why, the Boeing 737 is better, and even more variants to choose from!
A330/340- Well o' well, these look almost the same, but what's the point when other options like the Boeing 777-200ER/LR and 300 /ER are here, now!
By the way, if you did not check out airliners.net, the people there name the A380 as...
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Whalejet. -
This is bad bad.....wonder what's SIA or Emirate's reaction .
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Agreed.
Putting one-sided comparisons like that is an obvious biasness.Originally posted by LeftHandSeat:Excuse me..but why are u frustrated?Are u a customer of the A380? Did u lose hundreds of millions of $$$ or are you some tour operators who has to compensate pax for tkts/novelty of flying the A380 because of it's delay?
How do you know if the aviation community is laughing at this " joke" ?
just because an aircraft manufacturer makes a mistake doesn't mean all the models are too. U start shooting down all the AIB acft and compare them against Boeing jus because of this.?.
And what do u mean by A310 or the rest of the AIB acft here do not "stand out in peformance".
Please enlighten me...or the rest of the forumers here...I'm really wiling to learn from you. -
I am really sorry for what some think might be endangering to the future of aviation? No, not really, but just the plain fact that this delay had cost many their money, not mine though.
Even if its not my money, I really do care, about the development as a whole.
Why I shoot at AIB, simple, thats because I don't have good impressions of Airbus a/c. This is really personal, not to deal with any unhappy experience on Airbus a/c though. I only took SQ A310 many years back, but Boeing had always been my favourite. History is one thing, quality and quantity is another.
We don't live on a squarish world, everyone do have their own views. If you support Airbus, I am welcomed, but please let others have their own views as well, thank you. -
In my oppinion, if u support Airbus, I'm sure u're goin to say.. "heyy.. airbus is great... very comfortable and technological plane.. and its fly-by-wire.. fantastic...".. Then if u're a boeing fan u'll sAy "heyyy boeing is the best.. the best plane it ever build.. and has the steady standard.. remarkable for the history.. just look at the 747 the queen of the skies"....
Of course boeing is good,.. of course boeing has a succesfull history.. and of course boeing and 747 has made an icon for the aviation.. but look.. that queen of the skies is an old lady.. but yet still, she still goes for the "bre.ast enhancement" but ended she having a cancer and spread to her whole body!.. poor 747F..
Airbus, Yes is a mistake or i can say the company having some hic-cups.. The A380 program is delayed.. cummon building an aircraft to fly... or i can say its like flying ur 1 HDB flats! is not an easy thing.. and yes.. if u say but still boeing 747 has less delay than airbus A380... Oh cummon at that time boeing 747 is built, the technology and "some gadgets" is not as complicated like the A380.... wirings, etc2... you know these days everything is technology.. everything is safety... so more steps to be done compared to the 1960 queen of the skies...
So my oppinion, A380 cannot be compared to the 747s. Its a different mankind, its a different history and its a different technology upon that time.. but people still compared.. i juz don't understand.. but for me.. if i want to purchase a cargo aircraft it gaves an option of A380F or 747F.. i select ANTONOV 225 MRIYA......
I'm not a Boeing or Airbus fan, I'm just an enthusiast aviators.. and of course i admire airbus now.. coz they risk of building the A380 and make it fly.. and slightly bigger then the old queen of the skies... and of course i like the 747 ti.ts (the hump) its unique...
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Brudder, of course you are entitled to your views but one cannot simply shoot down another w/o a mature and fair comparison! I am not angry at you or anyone , I am more interested in a open but factual clear thinking discussion here. so whatever I am goin to say, it's not personal ok?
Look I don;t like Toyota Corolla but doesnt mean I go n shoot down all the corollas w/o reason.IT is a very good family car! I just don't like it, like u say personal thing. SO if you have a personal " things" against AIB, then say it is personal & that's it. but that doesnt mean AIB don;t make good aircraft. Like wat some of the forumers say here..building and sellling a plane is not as easy as you think. I had been there & its too much to share here. There are paperwork, certification, test flights, more certification, register/de-register,insurance, type certification, import/export procedures,permits to overfly, landing, radio license, support,even the type of INSECTICIDES you use to spray the acft prior to entering a country., license n royalthy for the IFE, videos, lawyers,leasing,agreements.,training. etc..
And when u say AIB A310 dont mit up to performance, what performance are you talkin about?. How do you compare? what is your criteria?..Like MR brown say" U mush exrpain..why you say A310 performance is not good when it is good"?
I am NOT supporting AIB or Boeing, I hold ratings for both and I am not talkin about FS. so coming from my point of view,,I am curious to your reasoning.
Thank you.
n pls dun be frustrated, it's not your father's $$$ nor do u have to cough up USD77M for compensation!Originally posted by jetabt767400:I am really sorry for what some think might be endangering to the future of aviation? No, not really, but just the plain fact that this delay had cost many their money, not mine though.
Even if its not my money, I really do care, about the development as a whole.
Why I shoot at AIB, simple, thats because I don't have good impressions of Airbus a/c. This is really personal, not to deal with any unhappy experience on Airbus a/c though. I only took SQ A310 many years back, but Boeing had always been my favourite. History is one thing, quality and quantity is another.
We don't live on a squarish world, everyone do have their own views. If you support Airbus, I am welcomed, but please let others have their own views as well, thank you. -
actually this delay will be bad news for airlines as well. This means that they'll be dependant on Boeing for their jet needs - which is not entirely good from business point of view.
moreover, airbus is losing out the market share that it has carved out at expense of boeing recently. For quite a while, boeing was playing catch up in terms of rolling out new plane models - A340-500, A340-600, then the lynchpin - A380. Whereas Boeing adopted a different mentality and stuck to the 747-400.
Personally, I think airbus has placed the entire stake in A380 and due to the delays, they have been bleeding bad. But A380 is an ambitious project that once complete, will put airbus an advantage over boeing. I hope they will sort out the delays soon but meanwhilst, they will have to pay tons of money for compensation.
shutting down the A350XWB will be a bad move bccos it will hurt them in the long run, they will not have anything to combat the 787. Not all airlines are going to take A380, the popular A320 are not suitable for mid-range - hence they need something there to fill the requirements. This is important because airlines prefer these mid-capacity aircraft for regional routes, airbus shld re-think....
airbus is now going thru one of the worst period...if they scrap the A350, that will mean more compensation suits to come....sigh. -
Sadly ... the lack of funds for EADS is stupid. This is because, EADS had to buy over shares to allow companies like Airbus and Eurocopter, etc, to come under the group. At the end of the day, it means no funds to create A350. Perhaps... place A350 development on the shelves first. I am still waiting for the day that A380 will awe the skies ...
Yes, at the same time, i am also waiting for the day that Boeing 787 will awe the skies too. These 2 planes, will bring flying a new experience ... and i hope i get to seat on them someday ... -
Thank you all for understanding. Whether the A350 will take to the skies, all depends on its bigger brother's success, now it seems.
However, I do want a model of the A350-900, not sure if the XWB version is out, but a Dragon Wings model will do. Any idea if it has arrived in stores like Nikko yet?
Although I don't really like Airbus, I still like to collect their models, brand and other factors does not affect this, btw I also have a A380 in SQ normal livery, bought in 2000... Dragon Wings no. 55380. -
I give up.
I hav no idea u talkin abt toys..if U like I can try n see if e AIB giftshop has some.it's far away frm where the delivery center is ..where I am.Originally posted by jetabt767400:Thank you all for understanding. Whether the A350 will take to the skies, all depends on its bigger brother's success, now it seems.
However, I do want a model of the A350-900, not sure if the XWB version is out, but a Dragon Wings model will do. Any idea if it has arrived in stores like Nikko yet?
Although I don't really like Airbus, I still like to collect their models, brand and other factors does not affect this, btw I also have a A380 in SQ normal livery, bought in 2000... Dragon Wings no. 55380. -
Give him a break, he's still a student
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Its ok, fine, some people don't have level of tolerances like I do. I had been flamed, punched and kicked in this forum and all other forums without even saying a word, but I will explain myself here.Originally posted by Rock^Star:Give him a break, he's still a student
I like models, models as in non-toys. I hope Mister Captain will understand this simple theory. This is even easier than telling you to pull the flap lever to 30 degrees, which is on the right of the throttle quardant if you know, I am definitely NOT a noope to aviation!
Did you ever try a takeoff at full power? As I know to, not all flights are permitted to takeoff at full engine power due to noise/environmental restrictions.
Only at special circumstances and especially, Mister Captain as you know better than me, when the runway is short.
So Mister Captain, I don't know more than you as a certified pilot, but I am not one who sits around, saying bluntly that the 747 is the largest aircraft in the world.
I know more than any kid/student/dreamer of my own age.
Watch our own words, I give you respect, Mister Captain.
So give me yours, thank you. -
i remember this phrase "there's a kid in u, There's a kid in me!" but i dunno from where.. verryyy firmilar liao!....
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Wah... aviation thread also can be a flaming war...
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Guys, gentlemen, ladies!! hey...Im cool...I didnt know some of you are students or non-aviator..if I had been too harsh I do apologised..now I know..so my tolerances will widen..like I said in my previous thread..it is nuthing personal..jus that im human too and after explaining so much, I'm caught wz a TOY qns..and change of subject.
so no worries..I kinda know noe from the way sum of u speak.my bad.
The good thing is this thread or web certainly is back to LIFE again as I understand that is was dormant n had gone cold freezer.
yeah.IM a kid too n i do collect model of airplanes myself, from Herpa to Dragon n of coz the exact models tat the manufacturer give out as gifts. Usually when I fly to HKG,I would go see if any new ones are around provided I hav enough transit time. THe shop is jus under the MAXIMS restaurant on the dept level.SHud any of u guys are there.
anyway, Mr Jetb767, yes I had taken off wz max powerN1 but mostly we do FLEX T/O, to ensure better lifespan of engine, brakes n tires.Nowadays with FMS n A/T ( autothrottle ) one really do not need a 100% N1 T/O.
One thing most of us havent tried yet is to DRIFT at TXY exits..the Goodrich we have is not as good as those Toyo T1R or SS595..yes we do make car jokes related to aviation, esp now that Honda Jet is flying already. We make joke like during a take off climb, for added power U OPEN V-TEC! and that the next series will be the Honda jet Type R!
. haha...
So once again..do pardon if I seem impatient n arrogant,,I will try and answer sum of your questions as best as I can.but I don't have all the answers sometimes. and some answers I am in no position to divulge.
Cheers N Happy weekend to all.
ps. What 's a NOOB?Originally posted by Rock^Star:Give him a break, he's still a student 
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Ok, cool, its ok then.
Noope is stupid, erm, ya, the slang... -
haha..then im a BigNoope also..Originally posted by jetabt767400:Ok, cool, its ok then.
Noope is stupid, erm, ya, the slang...