Righteousness through faith
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"Jewish traditions teaches this, Jews are chosen by God to be His people, hence its being a Jew and not by works, but they do believe they have to follows a fixed set of traditions/works to remain blessed"
God chose the Jews to be His people for what? To have a relationship with them. They, on their part still need to have Faith in God; just like Abraham.
Instead of having Faith in God, they ended up following the Ten Commandments plus many more that they added. This is the easy way out. Follow a set of rules and regulations and call that having a relationship with God.
Can you imagine a marriage where the wife does not know the husband and she follows a set of rules and regulations, supposedly from the husband that she does not know? Everyday she reads about her husband. Everyday she makes sure that she lives her life in a way that her husband would like her to live according to the book. She needs to buy an airline ticket (Faith) to be with her husband. But her faith is in the book about her husband; she bought the airline ticket (faith) to be with the book about her husband but not the ticket to be with her husband.
She is everyday just reading a book about him and living a life that she thinks he wants her to live, according to the book. Sure, she is his chosen one, but would you call that a relationship?
Jesus came to remind them that that they need to buy the ticket (Faith) to go to God and not just read the book about God and do what the book says.
If Christians want to believe that Jesus made them the chosen people (the wife in the example) just like the Jews, then similarly, the Christians must still buy the ticket (Faith) to go to the husband (God.) Instead, just like the Jews, the Christians day and night read about the husband (God) and do what the book says her husband wants her to do.
If the wife bought the ticket (Faith) to be with her husband, she could then throw away the book. There is no need to read about her husband anymore. There is no need to read from the book what the book says the husband wants her to do. She can throw away the book.
I cannot answer for you this question: "Do you have a relationship with God? Did you have the Faith (buy the airline ticket to be with the husband) that brought you to start a relationship with God or are you still reading about God."
So if you think Jesus died a horrible death so that you can continue to read about God? Think again.
As for the rest of your post, it is about theology and I am not so interested in that. You can take my version or your own version, it really is of no concern to me. All I am interested to ask you is: "Do you have a relationship with God such that you can say you need not to read the bible and pray to God anymore because you are talking to God and God is talking to you?"
What am I talking about?
Genesis 22:1 It happened after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" He said, "Here I am."You see Abraham talking to God? Not praying, mind you. talking to.
"It is enough. Now, O Yahweh, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers." (I King 19:4). Do you see this person asking God to kill him?
"What are you doing here, Elijah?"(I King 19:9) Do you see God talking to this person who wanted to end his own life? If there is anybody who is not worthy for God to talk to, he would be a very good example.
I am only giving you these examples because you can find the rest yourself. I am here telling you that God is still the same and will talk to you. Stop giving you excuses that the times are different and so on. Stop giving yourself excuses that you and they are different.
The only difference is that they had Faith in God and you do not. So what is Faith in God? -
after reading a few round of your post, there seems to be only one central theme.Originally posted by casino_king:"Do you have a relationship with God such that you can say you need not to read the bible and pray to God anymore because you are talking to God and God is talking to you?"
The only difference is that they had Faith in God and you do not. So what is Faith in God?
How do I know I have a relationship with God?
Because I had put my faith in the finished work of Christ, and hence I received salvation, justification, righteousness by grace from God. How I know this? Because God says so, and its recorded in the Bible.
What is Prayer?
Prayer is not just go to God when in needs, when we pray, we are really conversing with God, like I had said before, not just needs and worries, but also joy, praise, worship, and most of all listens; not just big things in our lives, but also the small things, the crazy things, in fact everything also can (at most God get a good laugh).
How to have a relationship with God?
imperfect men cannot approach the perfect God, His perfectness will 'fried' anything that are imperfect.
It is through faith in Christ that we can recieve justification and clothe in righteousness such that we can now have a relationship with God.
Why read the Bible?
To know God better, not that I can know everything, but because I treasured Him. Its like the wife wanting to know more about her husband its not about having faith or not, its about loving Him.
Oh, another thing, how do we know what is faith, justisfication, righteousness, ..etc without reading the Bible, how do we know how to approach God, or how to have a relationship with God without going to the Bible? In fact, How do we know if its God we are conversing with if we don't know God and how do we know God if we don't read about him as recorded in the Bible?
your thoughts? -
This is a play on words, but it's of no use to anybody. It may very be that I talk to God the way you deem it correct but I consider it praying.
CK seems to be under this curious idea that reading the bible and praying is anti-faith. And this idea seems to come from the fact that they are detached mediums from having a direction connection with God, which to him is the only possible consideration for justifying true faith. I wonder who sets the terms of this meeting, and who forgets that the human also consists of being part animal as well as spirit.
And also I think CK is mistaking the means for the end. Indeed if these actions of reading the word and praying are but an end to themself that that would not be faith, but as a means to an end, it's another thing entirely.
I suspect one reason CK might not be willing to come forward with stating what he truly believes in this issue is that the ability to put his own case into an actual pratice might be very far from what he says it to be.
It's good and well quoting scripture, but I wonder if CK has actually mustered up the faith and talked to God the way he says it should be. If not it might very well be hot air. I could claim that sleeping, eating and drinking are pagan, faithless and sinful for a person of true faith would be able to rely on God for all these needs instead of doing the physical acts that betray his own faithlessness (saying grace for food? what nonsense, a real person of faith and grace would not even need to eat for he shall be sustained by God alone).
I may also drag this point on for many pages on a thread and start throwing in monkeys for measure, but of course, I may not actually believe in it all and simply brought it up to confound others for the pleasure of apparently bringing up something indisputable to contradict what everybody knows to be good sense in the pratice in faith.
Of that I am greatly dubious, unless of course he wishes to correct me.
It is my opinion that the bible is more then just words and ink, and it is more then just good advice. How it is to people, it seems to me another thing entirely.
It's odd also, the CK uses religious texts to tell us why we shouldn't listen to religious texts... if that inference was true, then we would have no reason to consider the examples he quoted from the scriputres (of any religion). Which is where he got the entire example of Abraham from in the first place.
But if we did consider them we would be saying that some of it ought to be listened to to determine the correct way, but then if that part what about the rest?
Especially the bothersome verses that refer to God being the Word, the Word made flesh, and all those psalms who praised the study of the Word. Somehow we ought to only consider some very specific areas (picked to our own desire) and ignore largely what the rest are saying on how exactly our behaviour towards God should be like.
In the same like, I can prove to you (from the bible) that God demands us to commit suicide.
Judas hung himself
Jesus says that if you love Him, you would follow His commands.
Jesus says go do it now.
Not an attack on CK, but just my thoughts on his entire theme and case. Correct me if I am wrong. -
I more or less knew what you were going to say because they are "stock" replies by Christians I know. Unless you can come up with something new; I had considered them.Originally posted by vince69:after reading a few round of your post, there seems to be only one central theme.
How do I know I have a relationship with God?
Because I had put my faith in the finished work of Christ, and hence I received salvation, justification, righteousness by grace from God. How I know this? Because God says so, and its recorded in the Bible.
What is Prayer?
Prayer is not just go to God when in needs, when we pray, we are really conversing with God, like I had said before, not just needs and worries, but also joy, praise, worship, and most of all listens; not just big things in our lives, but also the small things, the crazy things, in fact everything also can (at most God get a good laugh).
How to have a relationship with God?
imperfect men cannot approach the perfect God, His perfectness will 'fried' anything that are imperfect.
It is through faith in Christ that we can recieve justification and clothe in righteousness such that we can now have a relationship with God.
Why read the Bible?
To know God better, not that I can know everything, but because I treasured Him. Its like the wife wanting to know more about her husband its not about having faith or not, its about loving Him.
Oh, another thing, how do we know what is faith, justisfication, righteousness, ..etc without reading the Bible, how do we know how to approach God, or how to have a relationship with God without going to the Bible? In fact, How do we know if its God we are conversing with if we don't know God and how do we know God if we don't read about him as recorded in the Bible?
your thoughts?
How do you know you have a relationship with your wife? With your parents? Can you be your parents' son but have no relationship with them?
LKY's great grand children will be able to read lots and lots of books on LKY but is that having a relationship with him? They might come across unauthorised versions of his biography and choose to read only those he wrote. Is that having a relationship with him? That is having faith in the authorised versions; sounds familiar?
When LKY dies, that is all that they can hope to do. Is that the way to have Faith in God? Treat God like a dead LKY?
If LKY's children and granchildren wants a relationship with him now, while he is still alive, do they need to read his books? They might want to read the books written about him or by him to see how others see him and how he saw himself in the past.
Should they then tell LKY: "According to your books, you should treat me this way and respond to me this way; the same way that you responded to those people in the books about you!"
Shouldn't they simply ask him? They cannot if they are not having a relationship with him and not in talking terms with him.
Having Faith in God is the door to start having a relationship with God and be on talking terms with God - to enter into the Kingdom of God. So what is Faith in God?
I think instead of coming up with stock replies that I can easily tear apart, why don't you try to tear apart my replies? -
Nothing wrong, very logical. Is logic the way to enter into the Kingdom of God?Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:This is a play on words, but it's of no use to anybody. It may very be that I talk to God the way you deem it correct but I consider it praying.
Not an attack on CK, but just my thoughts on his entire theme and case. Correct me if I am wrong.
Are you not the rich man (rich in logic) that Jesus said will find it impossible to enter God's Kingdom just as impossible as a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Don't tell me that the eye of a needle is some sort of small door. That is totally missing the point.
There are other things that you are rich in that makes it impossible to enter into the Kingdom of God.
As for the rest of your post regarding "practice;" a relationship is not "practice of Faith."
There is only one thing that you need to consider and that is "What is Faith in God?" -
Faith in God: is the door to start having a relationship with God and be on talking terms with God - to enter into the Kingdom of God.Originally posted by casino_king:Having Faith in God is the door to start having a relationship with God and be on talking terms with God - to enter into the Kingdom of God. So what is Faith in God?
Therefore your question is a stupid question insomuch that you have already given the answer, therefore there is no need to discuss it anymore, especially when you want all answers to match yours. -
You need money to buy ice cream. That explains "money?" Previously I would have called you a monkey because I thought you were trying to be funny ... now I am beginning to realise that you are serious. You see how much worse this makes you look?Originally posted by Chin Eng:Faith in God: is the door to start having a relationship with God and be on talking terms with God - to enter into the Kingdom of God.
Therefore your question is a stupid question insomuch that you have already given the answer, therefore there is no need to discuss it anymore, especially when you want all answers to match yours. -
Nothing wrong, very logical. Is logic the way to enter into the Kingdom of God?
No logic isn't THE way to enter the Kingdom, but then again it is a means to an end, and the use of it as part of the journey is far from illegal. In fact come to think of it, nothing is necessary for entering the Kingdom except that He made it necessary.Are you not the rich man (rich in logic) that Jesus said will find it impossible to enter God's Kingdom just as impossible as a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Don't tell me that the eye of a needle is some sort of small door. That is totally missing the point.
I get what you mean. If one relys only on logic to know God. Then sad to say that it would be quite impossible to know God.
This is however, quite another thing from saying that all believers ought to be poor in logic. Jesus did tell us after all to be as wise as vipers, and saw wisdom as a good thing. The problem comes when logic itself is exalted as the only way that one can ever know Him and takes the place of Him. IN it's proper place, logic is a good thing and in the end all proper thinking shall only lead to Him.
Paul told us that those who know do not know as they ought to know. It is correct to say that having sheer logic is not enough, knowing how He wants us to use it is equally important. This however means anything that we should be poor in logic, if anything there has been a lot said in the Word asking believers to exercise prudence, knowledge, and wisdom.There are other things that you are rich in that makes it impossible to enter into the Kingdom of God.
Isn't it the same for everything taken the the extreme. Nothing should replace Him as the desire of the heart. When it does even the safest things become the most fatal.
As for the rest of your post regarding "practice;" a relationship is not "practice of Faith." -
Does CK mean to say we need to understand faith to use it? I doubt a bird knows the exact science of how its wings work, but it flies anyway. Unless there is any argument here over if the bird can fly at all in the first place there is no real argument.
I have seen many old grandmothers with greater faith then anybody I've know, but of course they can't explain their faith on the point-to-point level. It is so obvious to them that it is almost a first principle. -
As I said, it's a play on words. I'm amazed anybody bothered to stick with him as long as you did. But I did mention a lot of illogical things he did rise up in his play of words.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Therefore your question is a stupid question insomuch that you have already given the answer, therefore there is no need to discuss it anymore, especially when you want all answers to match yours.
CK asserts Reading the bible is not faith (fair enough)
CK argues we do not need to listen to the bible (okay)
CK gets the example of faith from Abraham and Jesus from the bible (huh?!!)
I have no reason to regard the bible as anything but the unfaithful actions of men writing dogma, but yet I construct a thesis of true faith from unfaithful dogma?
Faith in God it seems to me to be a simple thing, but yet very elusive to pin down. It seems to be equal to the trust that a child has in the goodness of his father even though he does not understand everything the father is or what the father may do. It is the trust and confidence in the character, actions and love of the parent in lieu of immediate apparent understanding.
Now I'm not sure what CK is suggesting, but it seems to me that in his idea of faith in God. This child must not have absolutely no concepts or ideas of his father at all. He must be unquestioningly believing in something even though he is not even sure what that thing is, just that it should be labeled 'GOD'. Any kinds of romantic notions that arise in the mind to help this faith must be slapped down and killed immediately because to have any reason to believe would be anti-faith.
On that I disagree of course, this is certainly not the faith of the Christian faith. And in any case I do not believe God works that way or demands that of us (thankfully). He may very well choose to do so, but simply because He didn't, it wasn't that way.
One might as well argue that the world deserve immediate termination the very moment it fell (which would be correct), but the very reason we still persist is because of love and mercy, and against these things there is no law.
So CK is correct to say that faith comes from God. We cannot muster up the faith to believe in Him or do anything. It seems we can only choose to respond to it or not. -
You can get the examples from anywhere. After you get the examples, know that the book only tells you to have Faith in God, not put your trust in the book. So what is Faith in God?Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:CK asserts Reading the bible is not faith (fair enough)
CK argues we do not need to listen to the bible (okay)
CK gets the example of faith from Abraham and Jesus from the bible (huh?!!) -
in this case, without studing the book, how do you know what the book tells you?Originally posted by casino_king:You can get the examples from anywhere. After you get the examples, know that the book only tells you to have Faith in God, not put your trust in the book. So what is Faith in God?
If I don't trust what the book says (need to have faith in God), that means I think its telling a lie, then why should I put into practice what its says (have faith in God)?
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Originally posted by casino_king:
I more or less knew what you were going to say because they are "stock" replies by Christians I know. Unless you can come up with something new; I had considered them.
of course, my replies remains the same cause I am firm on these.
How do you know you have a relationship with your wife? With your parents? Can you be your parents' son but have no relationship with them?
LKY's great grand children will be able to read lots and lots of books on LKY but is that having a relationship with him? They might come across unauthorised versions of his biography and choose to read only those he wrote. Is that having a relationship with him? That is having faith in the authorised versions; sounds familiar?
When LKY dies, that is all that they can hope to do. [b]Is that the way to have Faith in God? Treat God like a dead LKY?
If LKY's children and granchildren wants a relationship with him now, while he is still alive, do they need to read his books? They might want to read the books written about him or by him to see how others see him and how he saw himself in the past.
Should they then tell LKY: "According to your books, you should treat me this way and respond to me this way; the same way that you responded to those people in the books about you!"
Shouldn't they simply ask him? They cannot if they are not having a relationship with him and not in talking terms with him.
read my answers again, don't preconceive them with your past considerations, I started off with the premise that I already had and still have a relationship with God, and its because I treasured this relationship with God that I want to also read about Him (study the bible) and know Him more. could I have asked him/ talk to Him? of course, I have a 24 by 7 always connected line with Him via the Holy Spirit, how close do you think I am with Him? but this does not stop me to also want to read about Him.
Having Faith in God is the door to start having a relationship with God and be on talking terms with God - to enter into the Kingdom of God. So what is Faith in God?
I think instead of coming up with stock replies that I can easily tear apart, why don't you try to tear apart my replies?
[/b] -
What do you mean by "without studying the book?" How can you know what a book says without reading it?Originally posted by vince69:in this case, without studing the book, how do you know what the book tells you?
If I don't trust what the book says (need to have faith in God), that means I think its telling a lie, then why should I put into practice what its says (have faith in God)?
Man has the need to know God. This is as fundamental as life itself. You do not need to worry about others, do you have it? This need to know God?
You can then be like scientists and look for evidence of God.
You can then be like philosophers try to figure God out.
You can be like religious people and follow certain formulas and practices.
Did I ask you to "trust what the book says?" Did I ask you to trust me?
You need to have Faith in God. What is Faith in God? -
could I have asked him/ talk to Him? of course, I have a 24 by 7 always connected line with Him via the Holy Spirit, how close do you think I am with Him? but this does not stop me to also want to read about Him.
You keep going back to you want to read about God as if man can ever know God or understand God. This tells me that you are desperately trying hear God's voice through the book.
This tells me that you only have an idea of God in your head. That what you say "I have a 24 by 7 always connected line with Him via the Holy Spirit," is just meaningless stock Christian reply.
You are no better than seekers in Hindu temples who worship idols. Even those seekers find God when they put their faith in God and reject the idols. You remain a seeker and I tell you that what you are seeking you can only find by having Faith in God. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
This is a personal question, first ask yourself this
[b]could I have asked him/ talk to Him? of course, I have a 24 by 7 always connected line with Him via the Holy Spirit, how close do you think I am with Him? but this does not stop me to also want to read about Him.
You keep going back to you want to read about God as if man can ever know God or understand God. This tells me that you are desperately trying hear God's voice through the book.
This tells me that you only have an idea of God in your head. That what you say "I have a 24 by 7 always connected line with Him via the Holy Spirit," is just meaningless stock Christian reply.
You are no better than seekers in Hindu temples who worship idols. Even those seekers find God when they put their faith in God and reject the idols. You remain a seeker and I tell you that what you are seeking you can only find by having Faith in God.[/b]
Do you have a relationship with God? Oh... bad me, I am assuming again, we are still talking about the God we christians believed in and worship, right?
If your answer is yes, what is your relationship with Him? if your answer is no, why haven't you?
Do you also know how to talk to God, hear His voice? If yes, how sure are you in that you are really talking to God and hearing His voice (from the very begining) and not something else?
Pls, you have not read my answers yet, you are just preconcieving that you know them. -
Just these few sentences tells me that you do not have Faith in God and continues to depend on idols; it is a normal for humans to cling to idols but you must move on and discard the idols and put your Faith in God.Originally posted by vince69:This is a personal question, first ask yourself this
Do you have a relationship with God? Oh... bad me, I am assuming again, we are still talking about the God we christians believed in and worship, right?
If your answer is yes, what is your relationship with Him? if your answer is no, why haven't you?
Do you also know how to talk to God, hear His voice? If yes, how sure are you in that you are really talking to God and hearing His voice (from the very begining) and not something else?
Pls, you have not read my answers yet, you are just preconcieving that you know them.
Anyway it is not something that I can transfer and teach you. If I do that, I will only introduce another idol to you. If you want to depend on all that you have been taught, on your own logic, on the logic of your pastors, on the "authorised" versions", on the idea of God you are comfortable with and refuse to put your Faith in God, what can I say? All I can do is tell you and the rest is up to you.
Just think about this, all I tell you is that to know God you need to have Faith in God and you have so much resistence. You need to depend on your bible, your church practices, your Christian concepts and ideas. You need all these instead of Faith in God.
Just ask yourself what Abraham had? His father was an idolator.
How did Abraham knew it was God? After you discard all the idols, you are left with only God. He simply put his Faith in God. -
I am not asking to you tell me the howOriginally posted by casino_king:Just these few sentences tells me that you do not have Faith in God and continues to depend on idols; it is a normal for humans to cling to idols but you must move on and discard the idols and put your Faith in God.
Anyway it is not something that I can transfer and teach you. If I do that, I will only introduce another idol to you. If you want to depend on all that you have been taught, on your own logic, on the logic of your pastors, on the "authorised" versions", on the idea of God you are comfortable with and refuse to put your Faith in God, what can I say? All I can do is tell you and the rest is up to you.
Just think about this, all I tell you is that to know God you need to have Faith in God and you have so much resistence. You need to depend on your bible, your church practices, your Christian concepts and ideas. You need all these instead of Faith in God.
Just ask yourself what Abraham had? His father was an idolator.
How did Abraham knew it was God? After you discard all the idols, you are left with only God. He simply put his Faith in God.
just a yes/no answer will be enough.
1) Do you have this relationship with God that you have been saying?
2) Do you have this Faith in God that you have been insisting on?
again, no need for long answer, just a yes/no answer will do.
thanks -
even david, the man who is after god's heart, pray to god....why the doubt in the powers of prayers?Originally posted by casino_king:[color=red]
I am only giving you these examples because you can find the rest yourself. I am here telling you that God is still the same and will talk to you. Stop giving you excuses that the times are different and so on. Stop giving yourself excuses that you and they are different.
The only difference is that they had Faith in God and you do not. So what is Faith in God? -
U are leading us in a wild goose chase with ur ambiguity...refusing to say what is faith urself....just playing with word games.....
mebbe u are really the orang utan? where do u quote those verses? it is from the bible isn't it? and u are telling christians to discard the bible while u can quote?
if god is "anything goes" like what u have said, anyone can write a gospel of their own, even u.....u can write the gospel of confusion and ambiguity.....
And yes, I do not believe u have a personal relationship with god....Originally posted by casino_king:Just these few sentences tells me that you do not have Faith in God and continues to depend on idols; it is a normal for humans to cling to idols but you must move on and discard the idols and put your Faith in God.
Anyway it is not something that I can transfer and teach you. If I do that, I will only introduce another idol to you. If you want to depend on all that you have been taught, on your own logic, on the logic of your pastors, on the "authorised" versions", on the idea of God you are comfortable with and refuse to put your Faith in God, what can I say? All I can do is tell you and the rest is up to you.
Just think about this, all I tell you is that to know God you need to have Faith in God and you have so much resistence. You need to depend on your bible, your church practices, your Christian concepts and ideas. You need all these instead of Faith in God.
Just ask yourself what Abraham had? His father was an idolator.
How did Abraham knew it was God? After you discard all the idols, you are left with only God. He simply put his Faith in God. -
Originally posted by laoda99:U are leading us in a wild goose chase with ur ambiguity...refusing to say what is faith urself....just playing with word games.....
mebbe u are really the orang utan? where do u quote those verses? it is from the bible isn't it? and u are telling christians to discard the bible while u can quote?
if god is "anything goes" like what u have said, anyone can write a gospel of their own, even u.....u can write the gospel of confusion and ambiguity.....
And yes, I do not believe u have a personal relationship with god....Originally posted by casino_king: 21 May 2006 · 05:55 PMYou can get the examples from anywhere. After you get the examples, know that the book only tells you to have Faith in God, not put your trust in the book. So what is Faith in God?Originally posted by casino_king: 21 May 2006 · 10:58 AMPreviously I would have called you a monkey because I thought you were trying to be funny ... now I am beginning to realise that you are serious. You see how much worse this makes you look? -
moved to after the next post.
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Seems to me you have no original thought in your own head and worse of all, you take Singapore Tyrannosaur's ideas and vince69 question and claim it as your own. Do you have any sense of shame?Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur 21 May 2006 · 05:32 PM:As I said, it's a play on words. I'm amazed anybody bothered to stick with him as long as you did. But I did mention a lot of illogical things he did rise up in his play of words.
CK asserts Reading the bible is not faith (fair enough)
CK argues we do not need to listen to the bible (okay)
CK gets the example of faith from Abraham and Jesus from the bible (huh?!!)
I have no reason to regard the bible as anything but the unfaithful actions of men writing dogma, but yet I construct a thesis of true faith from unfaithful dogma? -
It does not matter if anybody else, like me, has it. Faith in God does not need any "friends;" Abraham was alone in his Faith in God, His father was an idolator.Originally posted by vince69:I am not asking to you tell me the how
just a yes/no answer will be enough.
1) Do you have this relationship with God that you have been saying?
2) Do you have this Faith in God that you have been insisting on?
again, no need for long answer, just a yes/no answer will do.
thanks
Do you have faith in pastor or evidence or philosophy and theology and bible studies? Have Faith in God. -
CK will be begging for mercy in a trial court.
Lawyer Vince: "again, no need for long answer, just a yes/no answer will do."
CK (plantiff or defendent?): "It does not matter if anybody else, like me, has it. Faith in God does not need any "friends;" Abraham was alone in his Faith in God, His father was an idolator. Do you have faith ......."
Lawyer Vince: "YES OR NO!"