New Creation Church - Church of Cheap Grace?
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how are you supposed to doublecheck all the churches around if there are so many of them?Originally posted by vince69:Not easy, the only way is to double check/test all teachings against the Bible (hence the need for Personal Bible Study), emotional feels can sometimes be decieving.
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my mistake, should have said, double check all teachings received against the Bible. There is no way to check all church (unless we can be every where at the same time, maybe God can do this, not me at least)...Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:how are you supposed to doublecheck all the churches around if there are so many of them?
The reason is that a pastor may start off biblically, but as days past, may shift position, so for us, only way is to measure the teachings against the Bible, in order to decern biblical teachings against non-biblical ones. -
i will tell Osama to bomb CHC as a next target. = )
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My take: double check what the pastor says and see whether the bible really says so....Originally posted by vince69:my mistake, should have said, double check all teachings received against the Bible. There is no way to check all church (unless we can be every where at the same time, maybe God can do this, not me at least)...
The reason is that a pastor may start off biblically, but as days past, may shift position, so for us, only way is to measure the teachings against the Bible, in order to decern biblical teachings against non-biblical ones. -
These are the end times when the enemy has already infiltrated the churches. Sad but it is happening. All we can do is to be vigilant. Honestly, I do not see church growth as "good fruit" like what some charismatic churches have claimed. Looks can be deceiving.Originally posted by alexkusu:hmm...hard to tell the false prophets apart as well -
As 2005 comes to a close and 2006 is to begin, here are a few words for thought.
When picking a church to settle in, every christian should ask a few very fundamental questions:
- can you see God's hand in appointing the leaders or the leaders appointing themselves? Know that the Lord did warn us in Matt 13:1-2, 5-6, 21-23 about false "christian" prophets appearing and performing signs and miracles to deceive.
- if you can't see God's hand in it, who/what are you really worshipping?
- are you sure you're donating and building Christ's or someone else's empire?
- how are the church leaders livelihood different from those recorded in Scripture?
- what is it about the church that makes you go worship? Does it sound similar to what the disciples said in Matt 13:1? What kind of church pleases the Lord?
What displeases him?
Be a wise Berean christian and be on your guard (Matt 13:5,23). -
another good guideline will be,Originally posted by macjoe:As 2005 comes to a close and 2006 is to begin, here are a few words for thought.
When picking a church to settle in, every christian should ask a few very fundamental questions:
- can you see God's hand in appointing the leaders or the leaders appointing themselves? Know that the Lord did warn us in Matt 13:1-2, 5-6, 21-23 about false "christian" prophets appearing and performing signs and miracles to deceive.
- if you can't see God's hand in it, who/what are you really worshipping?
- are you sure you're donating and building Christ's or someone else's empire?
- how are the church leaders livelihood different from those recorded in Scripture?
- what is it about the church that makes you go worship? Does it sound similar to what the disciples said in Matt 13:1? What kind of church pleases the Lord?
What displeases him?
Be a wise Berean christian and be on your guard (Matt 13:5,23).
"Search the Scriptures". -
Any so called 'Church' can be tested with the acid test of orthodoxy.
What are the acid test of orthodoxy? These are the essentials of the faith. The essentials of the faith are teachings that directly relate to the Gospel.
Essentials of Christianity
1) Salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ.
any church who does not teach this doctrine is a cult. For denying this doctrine is an affront and a direct contradiction to the Gospel. Christ died for the sins of sinners and anyone who says that we can be saved by good works, prayer, church going and other stuff undermines the work of Christ.
2) The Doctrine of the Trinity
Salvation is the work of the FAther, Son and the Holy Spirit. God the Father in eternity past elects, the Son provided the atonement, the Holy Spirit makes the atonement effectual.
Any teaching that denies the Trinity denies the work of salvation as Triune as clearly taught in the Scriptures.
3) Inspiration and inerrancy of the Scriptures and it's sole authority of it in our lives.
Any doctrne of a so called Church that denies this puts doubt on the testimony of the Gospels about Christ death, His work of salvation. It undermines the veracity of the Gospel records and epistles concerning the Deity and Work of Chirst.
These are the irrecucible mininum of Christianity. Any church could be Arminian or Calvinist. Dispensational or Covenantal. Baptistic [believers baptism only or paedo baptistic [infant baptism] and etc. As long as they adhere to that three............they are considered Christian Churches.
Cults fail in either one or two or all of the above:
Jehova's Witnesses----salvation by works. fails in number 1. Denies the doctrine of the Trinity by making the Lord Jesus a small god. fails in number 2
Mormons------salvation by works. fails in number 1. Denies the inspiration and sole authority of the Bible. [they have their own Bibles] fails in number 3
Roman Catholic Church------------salvation by works. Makes Mary as Co-redeemer and co-mediatrix .fails in number 1. DEnies the sole authority of the Bible by making the magistrate the voice over tradition and the Bible should the two contradict. fails in number 3. Adds Mary as the Queen of Heaven and Earth. Denies the sufficient supremacy of the Trinity. fails in number 2 -
Hi, I totally agree with you on the essentials of christianity.Originally posted by Ironside:...
Essentials of Christianity
1) Salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ.
any church who does not teach this doctrine is a cult. For denying this doctrine is an affront and a direct contradiction to the Gospel. Christ died for the sins of sinners and anyone who says that we can be saved by good works, prayer, church going and other stuff undermines the work of Christ.
2) The Doctrine of the Trinity
Salvation is the work of the FAther, Son and the Holy Spirit. God the Father in eternity past elects, the Son provided the atonement, the Holy Spirit makes the atonement effectual.
Any teaching that denies the Trinity denies the work of salvation as Triune as clearly taught in the Scriptures.
3) Inspiration and inerrancy of the Scriptures and it's sole authority of it in our lives.
...
Cults fail in either one or two or all of the above:
...
Roman Catholic Church------------salvation by works. Makes Mary as Co-redeemer and co-mediatrix .fails in number 1. DEnies the sole authority of the Bible by making the magistrate the voice over tradition and the Bible should the two contradict. fails in number 3. Adds Mary as the Queen of Heaven and Earth. Denies the sufficient supremacy of the Trinity. fails in number 2
I do want to point out certain points about your idea of the Catholic faith. The Catholic church does not recognise Mary as a co-redeemer. She has no such power. She is not seen to be equal to Jesus and God.
Mary is not a queen of anything... In the Bible, she was never referred to as a queen. We do give Mary many titles, but at the end of the day, the focus is on Jesus, holy spirit and God. Not on her. Please do not be distracted.
The Catholic church does not claim to be bigger than the Bible. They do not "contridict" the Bible. They do not invent things independently off the Bible. Its just that the Bible is a very profound literature text and is somewhat difficult to interprete. If we allow any yahoo to interprete it in any manner they like, seen we'll have catholic terrorists bombing buildings full of pagans.
In the same manner you trust a doctor that spent 6 years studying medicine for medical advice, you should trust religious clergy who spent many years studying the scriptures for religious interpretations.
An interesting example would be a certain pastor that tells his followers that the more money they donate, the more assured their place is in heaven. That is a good example of how many people misinterprete the Bible. -
I was an altar boy [priest's assistant] of the Catholic Church before i became a Christian. I spent almost all my years in that Church.Originally posted by SilverPal:Hi, I totally agree with you on the essentials of christianity.
I do want to point out certain points about your idea of the Catholic faith. The Catholic church does not recognise Mary as a co-redeemer. She has no such power. She is not seen to be equal to Jesus and God.
Mary is not a queen of anything... In the Bible, she was never referred to as a queen. We do give Mary many titles, but at the end of the day, the focus is on Jesus, holy spirit and God. Not on her. Please do not be distracted.
The Catholic church does not claim to be bigger than the Bible. They do not "contridict" the Bible. They do not invent things independently off the Bible. Its just that the Bible is a very profound literature text and is somewhat difficult to interprete. If we allow any yahoo to interprete it in any manner they like, seen we'll have catholic terrorists bombing buildings full of pagans.
In the same manner you trust a doctor that spent 6 years studying medicine for medical advice, you should trust religious clergy who spent many years studying the scriptures for religious interpretations.
An interesting example would be a certain pastor that tells his followers that the more money they donate, the more assured their place is in heaven. That is a good example of how many people misinterprete the Bible.
I do Know that Roman Catholicism teachees that Mary is co-mediatrix, co-REdemptrix. That clearly opposes the Bible's teaching.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
When it says One it does not need any co. I don't see any Mary on the cross. I only see my Savior and Lord.
Mary was styled the Queen of Heaven and earth by the ROman Catholic Church. This is clearly the doctrine of the Roman Catholics. Ask your priests about it.
Ask your priests who gets the final say when the Bible and Church tradition conflict each other. The Bible does not say that Mary was taken up to heaven physically and crowned queen of heaven and earth...where is that in the Bible?
Catholics say: it's not in the Bible but in the traditions of Roman Catholicism.
But that's not in the Bible Christians reply? It's the magistrate [headed by the pope] that gets the final say. And so the doctrine was upheld.
The Holy Spirit [in a Christian] is interpreter of the Bible not any supposed erudite scholar. This is the battle cry of the Reformation 400 years ago. -
Without God's grace we are nothing. Who can claim they are sinless before God Almighty? So not against NCC or otherwise. I humbly repent before God Almighty by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. So pls think properly first before you answer about anyone or any church.
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Originally posted by Ironside:
What! You were an altar server?!
I was an altar boy [priest's assistant] of the Catholic Church before i became a Christian. I spent almost all my years in that Church.
I do Know that Roman Catholicism teachees that Mary is co-mediatrix, co-REdemptrix. That clearly opposes the Bible's teaching.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and [b]one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
When it says One it does not need any co. I don't see any Mary on the cross. I only see my Savior and Lord.
Mary was styled the Queen of Heaven and earth by the ROman Catholic Church. This is clearly the doctrine of the Roman Catholics. Ask your priests about it.
Ask your priests who gets the final say when the Bible and Church tradition conflict each other. The Bible does not say that Mary was taken up to heaven physically and crowned queen of heaven and earth...where is that in the Bible?
Catholics say: it's not in the Bible but in the traditions of Roman Catholicism.
But that's not in the Bible Christians reply? It's the magistrate [headed by the pope] that gets the final say. And so the doctrine was upheld.
The Holy Spirit [in a Christian] is interpreter of the Bible not any supposed erudite scholar. This is the battle cry of the Reformation 400 years ago.
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Explain your objection to the True Presence then..
Mary is the co-redemptrix, not because she is the saviour, but because she cooperated in God's plan for salvation. That does not make her the saviour.
And what is your objection to Sacred Tradition and the Authority of the Popes, Bishops, Priests and Deacons that was instituted by Our Lord Saviour himself?
Not everything is recorded in scripture, not everything is recorded in scripture.. -
Hi there my friend. I would not want to enter into polemics here that's not my main agenda in coming here. My polemics is limited only to what i have posted above about those groups nothing more nothing less. My agenda in coming here is to edify believers and evangelize the lost and defend the essentials of Christianity.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:What! You were an altar server?!
Explain your objection to the True Presence then..
Mary is the co-redemptrix, not because she is the saviour, but because she cooperated in God's plan for salvation. That does not make her the saviour.
And what is your objection to Sacred Tradition and the Authority of the Popes, Bishops, Priests and Deacons that was instituted by Our Lord Saviour himself?
Not everything is recorded in scripture, not everything is recorded in scripture..
about your fifth statement concerning the Scriptures i have to say something for that is an essential to the faith.
'Not everything is recorded in scripture, not everything is recorded in scripture'
But all that are recorded in Scripture are enough for the Christian to instruct him to make him complete for what is needed for holiness, righteousness and godly living. [all these aside from the way of salvation of course]
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
P.S. I responded about Purgatory because it is an attack about the sufficiency of the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. An essential doctrine. -
bravo..i agreed..rather o god will forgive you and god love you...Originally posted by The Emperor:by the way, cheap grace can mean two things.
First is: We can sin whatever we like, however we like and God still forgives us when we confess and confess and confess like there's no repentence and still think that it's okay.
Second is: Too much focus on grace during preaching. For church system: An absence in the area of confronting members of their sin areas in their lives.
I think what makes CHC different from the rest of the other churches is that the leaders are not afraid to confront their members regarding their sin areas in their lives and strongly encourage them to be transformed.
Seriously i have nothing against anyone or anything here... i'm just wandering what all this fuss is about and it's causing pple in CHC to have a negative impression of anyone leaving the church.
I left because I want to seek a place which God will allow me to flow well with the church and her visions. I don't want to be caught in middle of nowhere and doing something that I'll resent later on. -
Originally posted by Ironside:
If you can claim to evangelize the lost, so can I...
Hi there my friend. I would not want to enter into polemics here that's not my main agenda in coming here. My polemics is limited only to what i have posted above about those groups nothing more nothing less. My agenda in coming here is to edify believers and evangelize the lost and defend the essentials of Christianity.
about your fifth statement concerning the Scriptures i have to say something for that is an essential to the faith.
'Not everything is recorded in scripture, not everything is recorded in scripture'
But all that are recorded in Scripture are enough for the Christian to instruct him to make him complete for what is needed for holiness, righteousness and godly living. [all these aside from the way of salvation of course]
2Ti 3:16 [b]All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
P.S. I responded about Purgatory because it is an attack about the sufficiency of the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. An essential doctrine. [/b]
"stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15).
Refer to John 21:25 too.
If the scripture alone is enough, what then, is this 'word of mouth' that we are to follow?
And timelessly said, purgatory does not contradict Jesus' salvific work. -
agreed ...Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:faith and works!
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ignore it .it is just a laying systpom from the devilOriginally posted by John The Baptist:But if break arm or break leg or break neck then how?
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sigh...agreed...Originally posted by M©+square:JP put it across rightly, God sees the heart ultimately. Like what my signature below says.
This question was asked to further understand the stand of NCC worshippers.
If sin is commited, the believer should believe that he is covered in the blood of Jesus and Clothed in righteousness of Jesus. If he repents, he is putting Jesus on the cross again which is unnecessary; He need not repent.
God has forgiven you on the account of J. Christ.
They(My friends from NCC) said yes.
Next,
A christian believes in Christ, which means God will forgive his sins which he did in the past, the present and the future.
My friends said yes.
The problem is, why is it because of grace there is no need to repent even if sin was commited and people around us were affected or stumbled?
How come God's forgiveness extends to the future. He grace is ever for the people. But there have to be the act to recieve it don't you think so?
I see JP's point of view. And i understand his views.
Many people ask for forgiveness time and time again because they have no faith in themselves and in God.
They are stricken in guilt and not released. In fact these people are not living under the grace of God.
They are self concious their awareness do not let them live their Christian life effectively;To be the Light and salt of the world.
But i find JP's presentation awkward. Whenever this point of Grace was touched on.
Other than that, i've enjoyed his sermon and even considered being a member there.
Cheers -
this is my personal understandingOriginally posted by SingaporeMacross:If you can claim to evangelize the lost, so can I...
"stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15).
Refer to John 21:25 too.
If the scripture alone is enough, what then, is this 'word of mouth' that we are to follow?
And timelessly said, purgatory does not contradict Jesus' salvific work.
2 Thess is written during the time when the Bible is not fully compiled yet, so I can only deduced that the word 'letter' is not refering to the Bible.
so this is my interpretation
'letters' refers to the letters (aka mails) written by Paul and the other apostles.
'word of mouth' refers to thos preaching/teaching sessions (aka sermons) given by Paul and the other apostles (most of them recorded in the Bible), don't think its refering to oral traditions here.
cheers, God bless
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as what christ say HE is here to fulfill the the law by having the great commandment.Originally posted by janita219:Hi
I'm from CHC. May all forumites view me as a fellow christian instead of someone from CHC.
I have attended one of the seminar sessions on cheap grace. And here is what the cheap grace meant:
We're saved by Jesus blood, and though we are saved, it does not mean we will enter heaven when we die in future. We must abide by the Lord's commands. We should not think that since we've saved, we don't have to follow the laws and we can just continue to sin. If we behave in this manner, or if someone tells us that since we're saved we're free to do anything, Jesus's grace would seem to be cheap. So, Jesus's grace is invaluable, and once we're saved, we should behave well, follow the commandments, be a true christian and Jesus's follower.
Hm, personally, I've never heard any of my fellow friends from CHC said anything about NCC. Thanks. -
grace is like this to the receiptent (us), you don't need to work for it, its free, completely no string attached, totally unmerited favor.Originally posted by prataboy:
---Originally posted by janita219:
Hi I'm from CHC. May all forumites view me as a fellow christian instead of someone from CHC.
I have attended one of the seminar sessions on cheap grace. And here is what the cheap grace meant:
We're saved by Jesus blood, and though we are saved, it does not mean we will enter heaven when we die in future. We must abide by the Lord's commands. We should not think that since we've saved, we don't have to follow the laws and we can just continue to sin. If we behave in this manner, or if someone tells us that since we're saved we're free to do anything, Jesus's grace would seem to be cheap. So, Jesus's grace is invaluable, and once we're saved, we should behave well, follow the commandments, be a true christian and Jesus's follower.
Hm, personally, I've never heard any of my fellow friends from CHC said anything about NCC. Thanks.
---as what christ say HE is here to fulfill the the law by having the great commandment.
Salvation to us who do nothing, but received everything, its free, but its cost God His Son. So don't think we should call it cheap.
As to whether this interpretation will lead people to sin more? lets make it this way, we in our fallen nature do not need a reason to sin.
But knowing that God loves us and that He will never condemn us again, will free us from self condemnation, that we may be free to approach His throne of grace and willingly submit ourselves to Him (not out of fear of punishment).
If we need to behave well, follow the commandments...etc to enter heaven, then its not call grace, its called a reward.
cheers and God bless. -
yes ...Originally posted by vince69:my mistake, should have said, double check all teachings received against the Bible. There is no way to check all church (unless we can be every where at the same time, maybe God can do this, not me at least)...
The reason is that a pastor may start off biblically, but as days past, may shift position, so for us, only way is to measure the teachings against the Bible, in order to decern biblical teachings against non-biblical ones.
1)have a desire heart for wisdom
2)pray for discernment.
3)obey the truth(bible) & be adoers of the word & not only a hearer of the word.
4)read bible and plus other book.
5)depend on the holy spirit
6)follow a discerning leader.
7) pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. -
it is not cheap but don't abuse it.Originally posted by vince69:grace is like this to the receiptent (us), you don't need to work for it, its free, completely no string attached, totally unmerited favor.
Salvation to us who do nothing, but received everything, its free, but its cost God His Son. So don't think we should call it cheap.
As to whether this interpretation will lead people to sin more? lets make it this way, we in our fallen nature do not need a reason to sin.
But knowing that God loves us and that He will never condemn us again, will free us from self condemnation, that we may be free to approach His throne of grace and willingly submit ourselves to Him (not out of fear of punishment).
If we need to behave well, follow the commandments...etc to enter heaven, then its not call grace, its called a reward.
cheers and God bless. how will you jusfity it..lol -
err.... justify what?Originally posted by prataboy:it is not cheap but don't abuse it. how will you jusfity it..lol
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Confirm. They are 'brother relationship'Originally posted by Icemoon:Got meh!?
Tell me leh .. I love to hear such things.
I think CHC also buay gam with FCBC .. can you confirm?
This two churches agree to disagree, but the senior pastor of both church were very close to one another.
FCBCians....agree?