SMRT MAN NG363F A24 discussions
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Bendies will still be needed even with whatever kind of 12.8m three door two staircase fancy DDs....
The problem with short-distance feeders or feeder-like services is, people are not moving upstairs not because of DDs having not enough staircases to go up/down nor that it takes a long time to load/unload (most feeders have unidirectional loading anyway), but because there's no point of going upstairs when you will alight 1 or 2 stops later.
Some SBST feeders works (or worked) well with DDs, but because there's simply no option. Given two choices: going upstairs so that you can board; versus not going upstairs and having to wait for a long time (as some feeders had relatively poor frequencies in the past), many would choose the first - which only means that DDs are better than SDs. If SBST had bendies, I'm sure they would deploy bendies instead of DDs on these slots. (That should be the same reason why 72B operates with majority SD fleet)
The 12.8m three door two staircase fancy DDs (referred to as "12.8m DDs" below) that are often in discussions these days helps the most, IMO, in situations when there is huge boarding/alighting activities at the same stop, when single-staircase DDs face problem because boarding pax need to wait for others to alight first. Some examples that I immediately think of are 52, 78, 154, 201 at Clementi, 222 at Bedok MRT, and 72 at Hougang. 12.8m DDs are badly needed for these services. However, this situation DOES NOT apply to most feeders as their loading patterns are often unidirectional. so you don't see a lot of pax both boarding and alighting at the same stop. (Those saying services like this need bendies just because of long boarding/alighting times, stop trying.)
The only issue of using bendies for feeders (NOT trunks) is space constraints, including the space required at bus stops / interchange berths, in bus interchange parking lots, and in bus depots. For the first issue, although it's true that feeders usually ply areas without other services, they still need to load/unload at bus interchanges and major bus stops, where you often see a lot of buses waiting for alighting berths or waiting to enter the bus stop. Bendies will make the situation worse. For the other 2 issues (parking lots), although there can be changes to existing infrastructure, it often result in reduced number of lots.
In summary, my point of view: Use bendies wisely for feeders and feeder-like services; 12.8m DDs for others. If no bendies, add buses to achieve reasonable frequency first (not 291/293 kind), then upgrade SD->DD.
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Originally posted by TIB429E:
I doubt, with such high level of security in Singapore, there won't be DD for airport svc?
Just imagine those passengers whom left their luggage at the lower deck, and went up. Can be an act of terrorism...
Ask Cityflyer about that
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Originally posted by SBS351M:
I don't think you understand the concept of majority and minority. My point stated above was that majority of cities in the world that require high capacity turn to bendy buses.
like Hong Kong and London? how similar is Singapore compared to those 'majority of cities' you are referring to?
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Both bendy buses and DDs have their place in Singapore. We are quite lucky most of our roads (maybe not the transport infrastructure) are able to accomodate bendy buses. If bendies are to be kept, may I suggest that we simply have no-bendy zones in areas with extremely high concentration of vehicles (to be determined at a later date), where space is a premium, such as Orchard Road and Shenton Way. Those routes won't have bendy buses.
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Originally posted by carbikebus:
Can,If only our attitude is like the people of berlin,See how easy passenger boarding/alighting from the 13.7m three door/dual staircase MAN Lion City DD?
It's not about attitude anymore if they know how to do it... I.e. make the last door tap-out only and first door entry-only...
This is forcing ppl to move to the back and move in one single direction... Only that its forcing in a good way...
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Originally posted by TIB429E:
Just stick to bendy or SD for feeders/intra-town...
It's difficult to change the habit...take a look at the trials of the MRT queue at various MRT platforms..when it comes to peak hours, everything haywire.
Ideal layout would be...
- SBS Transit's Citaro ~ Wide standing space opposite doors, since more passengers love to crowd around there(the door).- HK Buses ~ Wheelchair bay next to the door, boarding passengers have more space to "cut" and head for the rear.
- Dual Stairs, BUT side by side. Maybe that could change the direction of flow easily, rather than asking ppl to go all the way behind to alight.
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Why not ask ppl to go all the way behind, when the problem you so want to solve is the entire issues of passengers not heading to the rear?? How hilarious.
Regarding HK design, no you can't rly cut thru coz that space will simply fill up, common sense in application.
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Originally posted by SMB128B:
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Why not ask ppl to go all the way behind, when the problem you so want to solve is the entire issues of passengers not heading to the rear?? How hilarious.
Regarding HK design, no you can't rly cut thru coz that space will simply fill up, common sense in application.
Now I'm referring to the upper deck. Where passengers need to walk all the way back to alight? Logically, you can't use the front stairs for alighting as it simply disrupt the flow.
Why can't? If there's seat behind, will you stand there or sit? On average, ppl will sit right? So that space won't be filled up that quickly yet.
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Originally posted by TIB868X:
Ask Cityflyer about that
Maybe you wish to compare the level of security here in S'pore and in HK.
Even in S'pore now, photography can be considered a suspicious activity as seen on advertisements..do you see that in HK?
Even a simple act of putting ur bag nearly below your seats on train could gain many unwanted attention...
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Originally posted by TIB429E:
Now I'm referring to the upper deck. Where passengers need to walk all the way back to alight? Logically, you can't use the front stairs for alighting as it simply disrupt the flow.
Why can't? If there's seat behind, will you stand there or sit? On average, ppl will sit right? So that space won't be filled up that quickly yet.
Adding on..
Anyway, DD don't seems to have issue with moving to the rear, it's rather SDs/Bendy. The problem with DD is due to passengers unwanting to move up. Maybe I have mentioned wrongly earlier, but just to make it clear..
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Originally posted by TIB429E:
Now I'm referring to the upper deck. Where passengers need to walk all the way back to alight? Logically, you can't use the front stairs for alighting as it simply disrupt the flow.
Why can't? If there's seat behind, will you stand there or sit? On average, ppl will sit right? So that space won't be filled up that quickly yet.
As in, by walking in your chain of ideas in ur prev post what I can interpret is you are hoping people could "cut" in when the corridor near the stairs are filled, correct?
So when the pax fill up the corridor it means they prefer standing front. Wouldnt that space be filled up then?
Similarly, by applying your chain of thoughts here you are saying ppl will go to the back instead of standing in front?
So means people will move back anyway. Thus whats the incentive to "cut" to the back?
Kindly clarify your contradictory statements?
Assuming the upper deck prohibits standing. What is the loss from alighting at the rear, when an exit door will also be at the rear? Unless you are oblivious to how a 3-door bus look like? Same stairs, same door. But less crowding from fighting over space with lower deck pax, and from not blocking the way of boarding pax for buses which has heavy boarding and alighting activities at a single stop.
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Originally posted by TIB429E:
Maybe you wish to compare the level of security here in S'pore and in HK.
Even in S'pore now, photography can be considered a suspicious activity as seen on advertisements..do you see that in HK?
Even a simple act of putting ur bag nearly below your seats on train could gain many unwanted attention...
Ignorance at its epic best.
By putting your bag below and going up into a fully-sealed upper deck, monitored by CCTV, how do you expect one to escape thru upper deck while leaving luggage below? Crack a window and perform a stunt jump like those fugitives from Hollywood?
Whats the problem? Its the same with SDs anyway, if your problem is with ppl leaving the bus without claiming luggage. In fact it happens everywhere. So you mean we should shut down CGL also since its such a bloody long train and a bag may be left under the bench?
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Originally posted by TIB429E:
Adding on..
Anyway, DD don't seems to have issue with moving to the rear, it's rather SDs/Bendy. The problem with DD is due to passengers unwanting to move up. Maybe I have mentioned wrongly earlier, but just to make it clear..
If such a problem exists in an SD, what makes you so convinced it wouldnt exist on a DD, given its lower deck has basically the same layout as an SD i.e. seats and alley all the way behind?
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Originally posted by SMB128B:
It's not about attitude anymore if they know how to do it... I.e. make the last door tap-out only and first door entry-only...
This is forcing ppl to move to the back and move in one single direction... Only that its forcing in a good way...
Does not work.
Still will make pax crowd at the front
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A24s rear trailer could use the same arrangement as O405G. While this cannot solve the problem, it does makes space for the middle section. The A95s could also have same layout as the VO3x.
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Originally posted by TIB429E:
I doubt, with such high level of security in Singapore, there won't be DD for airport svc?
Just imagine those passengers whom left their luggage at the lower deck, and went up. Can be an act of terrorism...
In the first place, CGA basement has insufficient height clearance to allow DDs inside.
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Originally posted by SMB145B:
Does not work.
Still will make pax crowd at the front
How come? Even if the front door do allow for alighting pax wont squeeze at the front what. Like now, ppl also dont crowd at the front; they crowd near the exit. So when we shift the exit to the back ppl will hence move to the back, solving prob of not moving to rear! Unless us SGreans are such cripples we cant even move a few steps more!
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Originally posted by SMB128B:
How come? Even if the front door do allow for alighting pax wont squeeze at the front what. Like now, ppl also dont crowd at the front; they crowd near the exit. So when we shift the exit to the back ppl will hence move to the back, solving prob of not moving to rear! Unless us SGreans are such cripples we cant even move a few steps more!
Or if one of the operators decide to adopt Macau's BC attitude by refusing to open the front door, followed by yelling or giving them a fierce face, maybe that will change.
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Originally posted by SMB145B:
Does not work.
Still will make pax crowd at the front
Why not? It isn't hard to re-program the EZ-Link card readers at the front door back to its very original programming back in 2002: tapping on it always initiates a new ride resulting in double charge (including one maximum fare). And then instruct Transitlink to refuse all refund applications resulting from such incidents.
Once such news become public, watch how passenger behaviour changes.
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Originally posted by SMB128B:
How come? Even if the front door do allow for alighting pax wont squeeze at the front what. Like now, ppl also dont crowd at the front; they crowd near the exit. So when we shift the exit to the back ppl will hence move to the back, solving prob of not moving to rear! Unless us SGreans are such cripples we cant even move a few steps more!
The problem with the taros and A22s is the 'empty' space towards the rear. Apparently, there is also language barrier among other issues.
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Originally posted by sgbuses:
Why not? It isn't hard to re-program the EZ-Link card readers at the front door back to its very original programming back in 2002: tapping on it always initiates a new ride resulting in double charge (including one maximum fare). And then instruct Transitlink to refuse all refund applications resulting from such incidents.
Once such news become public, watch how passenger behaviour changes.
Don't even bother, it will result in an uproar. PR disaster.
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Originally posted by SMB145B:
The problem with the taros and A22s is the 'empty' space towards the rear. Apparently, there is also language barrier among other issues.
You need to read and follow my posts from the very beginning to understand my point.
Basically I am saying how a 3 door varient, with a door all the way at the back, will automatically force commuters to move to the rear and in a single direction when we alter the programming of the ezlink card readers, such that passengers cannot board from the back which may disrupt passenger flow. Regarding the problem at the entrance, currently we dont see pax really willingly crowd round the front too, dont see any difference with tri-door varient.
In the first place what are your views on 3-door-dual-stair DDs on feeders and intratowns forst, as compared to standard DD/SD? Coz y'know, it is precisely we see the prob with A22/Citaros that we are hoping LTA look into the viability of such buses in SG.
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Well its pointless how we argue which is best,LTA decided not to buy bendy buses anymore,Full stop.
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Originally posted by SMB128B:
As in, by walking in your chain of ideas in ur prev post what I can interpret is you are hoping people could "cut" in when the corridor near the stairs are filled, correct?
So when the pax fill up the corridor it means they prefer standing front. Wouldnt that space be filled up then?
Similarly, by applying your chain of thoughts here you are saying ppl will go to the back instead of standing in front?
So means people will move back anyway. Thus whats the incentive to "cut" to the back?
Kindly clarify your contradictory statements?
Assuming the upper deck prohibits standing. What is the loss from alighting at the rear, when an exit door will also be at the rear? Unless you are oblivious to how a 3-door bus look like? Same stairs, same door. But less crowding from fighting over space with lower deck pax, and from not blocking the way of boarding pax for buses which has heavy boarding and alighting activities at a single stop.
Firstly, I never mentioned which layout for which type of buses.
Mind the words I've used...There's seats behind. The space would most likely be empty. They move to the rear because of that. At this point, you might not see the purpose.
But comes to when the bus is crowded. Look at our A22/Citaro, there's always plenty of empty space there. These space, including the layout #1(Citaro one), can allow ppl to slip tru to the rear easily? Even if it's occupied, there's still a chance to go tru them. It simply enlarge the walking space(as seen now).
Put to DD application, I've realize it works well too. Passengers boarding the bus can simply squeeze tru to the rear instead of queuing up for the stairs.
Why is there a need to assume when it's prohibited? Passengers at the front would walk pass the first stairs, to the 2nd just because of the door and incoming pax from lower deck. Do you think it will be a smooth pace? I'm sure many lazy ones will use the first stairs more if they are sitted at the front, resulting in delay in alighting if failed to come down all the way.
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Though how i much i dont like they dont wanna buy bendy buses but i guess its all up to their decision.
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Originally posted by SMB128B:
Ignorance at its epic best.
By putting your bag below and going up into a fully-sealed upper deck, monitored by CCTV, how do you expect one to escape thru upper deck while leaving luggage below? Crack a window and perform a stunt jump like those fugitives from Hollywood?
Whats the problem? Its the same with SDs anyway, if your problem is with ppl leaving the bus without claiming luggage. In fact it happens everywhere. So you mean we should shut down CGL also since its such a bloody long train and a bag may be left under the bench?
Before the team could even view the CCTV, if it's a real bomb, the cctv footage might have already gone case. And how would you know if the person is covering his face?
At least for SD, there isn't much people as compared to DD? That's the reason why announcement are played on trains to look for suspicious items etc.?